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Thread: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by ksr View Post
    Disagree. At the end it still sold what might have been the best sedan on the road, the G8. It had the Solstice. Personally, I think the G6 family of cars were underrated, with the coupe and convertible being pretty nice and unique to Pontiac. If the Camaro had been offered as a Firebird in addition to being a Camaro (personally, I'd say instead of Camaro), it would have revived the brand overnight.

    They made a ton of missteps, no doubt. But it was a full line automaker and they fleshed it out with rebadged Chevys like the Torrent and G5, and the truly awful G3 (Aveo).
    I respect your disagreeance and disagree with it. The G6 was and is trash from it's weak styling to it's spotty build quality and then it's need for a special tool to replace the headlamps.

    However, I will agree with you about the G8 and Solstice; Pontiac's only saving grace (I feel) at the time of it's untimely demise.

    I made a mistake I liked the G4 (sort of I) it was the G3 that was the other turd I forgot (I see one every month,albeit it's the same one).
    Last edited by Mr.Buttons; 04-27-2019 at 05:49 PM.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    RIP Pontiac, you were a great alternative to Dodge, who is now dying 10 years after.
    The smoke coming from Muscleville says otherwise. They should be fighting Pontiac tooth & nail right now.

    And wherever my GTO is now, we salute the Tin Indian.





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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by SP1966 View Post
    People have asked why I'm a Ford guy, it's mostly because I have a strong contrarian streak. Growing up it seemed everybody was one of those miserable Chevy lovers so by default I looked elsewhere. My first two automotive loves were the 65-66 Mustang Fastback and and GTO pre-1971. My first ever car was a 77 Grand Prix SJ which had the Pontiac 400 and put out what felt like 25HP! Still I loved that car, and I'm still miffed that GM shuttered Pontiac, I hate them for it!
    Not my first vehicle, it was a '77 Chevy 4X4, but my first car was a Pontiac. Albeit a lowly little 1980 Sunbird notch back coupe in a dark maroon metallic color. The 151 cid Iron Duke and a manual tranny, but with almost every option I could get including the sunroof. Price of $6675.17 out the door. The thing I liked the most at the time was the manual and the Rally RTS handling package. It had the worst back seat known to mankind. But still, it was such a fun little car because of the Rally RTS pkg. That right there hooked me on the brand and always admired them even in their lackluster latter days(daze).

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    GMI Camaro Forum Moderator Premium Member Z284ever's Avatar
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by ksr View Post
    https://jalopnik.com/the-feds-killed...ays-1452735716

    This one says that the a version of the ATS would have ended up at Pontiac. Who knows if that would really have happened as the ATS didn't launch until four years post-Pontiac. I'm sure Lutz would have wanted that, but not so sure GM would have ever permitted it.

    Whatever Feds were responsible for the death of Pontiac deserve a brutal, long, and painful death followed by an eternity in the fires of hell. I say that without the slightest intent of being funny or of exaggeration. If I could somehow cause it, I would.
    What became Alpha, was being referred to at the time as Kappa 2. Lutz envisioned it as a family of lightweight, 4 cylinder only cars for Pontiac. No one at GM wanted to spend the money, in fact they were all dead set against it, and the people running Pontiac at the time were too stupid to see the potential and didn't push for it either, so it died.

    Until Cadillac became interested.

    At the time the program was nothing more than computer math, Cadillac said they were interested, but needed it redesigned to fit a V6.
    Last edited by Z284ever; 04-27-2019 at 08:06 PM.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by sdotjeezy View Post
    Pontiac died long before 10 years ago. Pontiac was dead the moment they became merely Chevys with twin kidney grilles. Schtuff like the torrent, g6, g5, g4 weren't what Pontiacs were supposed to be.
    Pontiac was run by incompetent fools for at least 15 years before they died. Even with interesting products like supercharged 3800, GTO, G8, Solstice, G6 with 3.9L and manual trans, GP GXP, etc., they just didn't get it.



    The late Jim Wangers did a great piece on it. Here's an excerpt. Everyone in this thread should make it their business to read it. Link at bottom:

    Roy Roberts inherited Pontiac when GM announced the merger of Pontiac and GMC truck. Roberts never really “got” Pontiac, at a time when the entire marketplace was enjoying a modern performance evolution. While the computer controlled, supercharged Grand Prix GTP was attracting an entirely new and much younger buyer, Roberts and his marketing team completely missed it, never winning any serious respect for the car.

    Lynn Myers, a Pontiac “lifer” who by never taking a risk, woke up one morning to learn she had been appointed Marketing General Manager. She continued to miss the evolution of the “computer tuners,” who had by now become the next generation of real Pontiac enthusiasts. They had learned how to combine a laptop and a few “bolt-on parts” to really make the GTP fly! To this generation – in image – the GTP was indeed the closest thing to come out of Pontiac since the first GTO. And on the subject of the new GTO, Myers and her team completely missed the magnificent heritage opportunity. She missed a market full of real Pontiac “lovers” who were pleading for a new rear-drive performance coupe. She had no idea what it meant to be called a “GTO.” In fact, she told me once that the new ’04 GTO was never to be called an “M-Car.” When I asked what is an “M-Car?” she replied, “A musclecar, and we’re not going to ever drag race it. We’re going to use it in Sports Car Road Racing.” I said, “Oh my God” and walked away shaking my head.

    Myers failures were even more dramatically demonstrated when she introduced her new performance marketing guru Bob Kraut, who had been recruited straight from Madison Avenue, and almost seemed proud that he knew nothing about cars or previous Pontiac imaging. As product manager for the Grand Prix line and the new GTO, Kraut would literally embarrass himself, as knowledgeable automotive press and real car-enthusiasts knew more about the subject than he could ever learn. Directing the “No M-Car” concept, Kraut visited event after event only to anger and confuse the “real” Pontiac family who so wanted to like the new GTO. As a consumer product marketer, he never learned what the letters GTO meant, let alone understand its image. Worse yet, he really didn’t even want to learn what made Pontiac a Pontiac.

    Bob Kraut was a product of the Corporate “GM Villain” philosophy. Board Member John Smale, sometimes known as the “Toothpaste King” because of his previous Proctor and Gamble experience decimated the entire GM marketing department by exclaiming that, “You guys are all wrong, people don’t care which end drives the car, they only want to know how good they’re going to look and feel in it.” With his new hand-picked marketing czar Ron Zarella, fresh from the Eyeglass Business, they started on a dedicated effort to hire outsiders who proudly knew nothing about the automobile business. Needless to say, this noble experiment was a disastrous failure – one more time proving the “Show Me A Man” theory.

    Pontiac is gone and now General Motors has filed for bankruptcy. Pontiac was lost because management lost sight of what made a Pontiac a Pontiac – its image. Bankruptcy protection and the bailout by the U.S. government will not relieve GM of the need continue to develop and market saleable cars. Right now, “The dogs don’t like the dog food.” GM’s image has come to symbolize inferior workmanship, uninspired design and second-tier technology; this leading to a declining market share and now bankruptcy.

    What was true back when GM held more that 50 percent of the U.S. market is even more true today, “It is not what you are, but what they think you are.” GM’s biggest challenge moving forward is its image. They must once again establish the image of an innovative industry leader; a car for every buyer and every pocket book. They can do this through inventive efforts like the Chevrolet Volt. However; most importantly, GM must focus its marketing efforts to reinvent a new kind of “Chevy”…a new kind of “Buick”…a new “Caddie” …and even a new “Jimmy.” Hell, I don’t drive and I don’t love a “GM.”

    https://industrytoday.com/article/who-killed-pontiac/
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    ......nevermind.....
    "The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. "

    W.B. Yeats- 1919



    .

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by megeebee View Post
    ......nevermind.....
    I don't anyway.

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Said I would keep my GTO forever. Then the wife said she did not enjoy driving it anymore, sons aren’t interested in it. They want my 66. So I’m thinking I could trade it on something new, someday. Until I get and drive it, it’s just to much fun rowing my own. It’s going to be a hard separation when ever the day arrives...
    Goldman Sachs , AIG , Wells Fargo, Berkshire Hathaway , UAW, & SEIU.......Todays organized crime mobs

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Z284ever View Post
    Pontiac was run by incompetent fools for at least 15 years before they died. Even with interesting products like supercharged 3800, GTO, G8, Solstice, G6 with 3.9L and manual trans, GP GXP, etc., they just didn't get it.



    The late Jim Wangers did a great piece on it. Here's an excerpt. Everyone in this thread should make it their business to read it. Link at bottom:




    https://industrytoday.com/article/who-killed-pontiac/
    Yeah, Wangers nails it. It was an amazing and pitiful thing to watch, GM going with toilet paper and toothpaste salesmen because, after all, sales is sales. That mental infection has spread to much of society today. The ability to think rationally is becoming an endangered species.

    Without a yooj culling of the World Citizens and imagination/enthusiasm-free suits, GM will not recover their mojo.

    Poncho was always my division. My first real car was a '67 Catalina 2-door hardtop. I also got lucky and gained possession of a very very cherry '68 Executive with very low miles, owned by an old folks. My next Poncho was a '79 Parisienne, front Konis and rear air shocks. No they weren't Goats, but they worked for me. And the last Pontiac was the '07 GP GXP, whose 325 c.i. put out about as much HP (303 IIRC) as a modern 3.6 (about 220 c.i.) minivan engine.
    I was also shopping a Lacrosse Super, and I should have bought that, it really was a much nicer car. Oh well. Now I'm a Soul Man. Hit it, Jake!
    2017 Soul &, Titanium

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by sdotjeezy View Post
    Dodge isnt dying....from what part of your hindquarters do you get some of the stuff you post from?
    Dodge is dying, robbed of Ram, now the Durango is going to be part of Ram, what’s left? Let’s be honest

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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    Dodge is dying, robbed of Ram, now the Durango is going to be part of Ram, what’s left? Let’s be honest
    Check out the thread about the Challenger outselling the Camaro. Yeah, Dodge is dying. Charger is due for it's redesign next year (gotten pushed back a few times) & they still are the top selling large car. The only thing we are still waiting on was the smaller sedan that is supposed to on a RWD chassis. FCA seems hesitant to return a push for Chrysler to have SRT products like AMG or M models.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by Z284ever View Post
    Pontiac was run by incompetent fools for at least 15 years before they died. Even with interesting products like supercharged 3800, GTO, G8, Solstice, G6 with 3.9L and manual trans, GP GXP, etc., they just didn't get it.



    The late Jim Wangers did a great piece on it. Here's an excerpt. Everyone in this thread should make it their business to read it. Link at bottom:




    https://industrytoday.com/article/who-killed-pontiac/
    Wow, does that bring back memories. I was the Chief Designer in one of the Pontiac Exterior studios when Ron Zarella and his team of non-car minions joined GM at the behest of John Smale. What a disaster. That unholy union spawned the Aztek, among other marvels, and it was the beginning of the end for Pontiac.

    Disclaimer: I didn't work on the Aztek, that was the other Exterior studio.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    Dodge is dying, robbed of Ram, now the Durango is going to be part of Ram, what’s left? Let’s be honest
    I don't understand why they had to create a Ram brand separate from Dodge.

    I don't think that Dodge is necessarily dying. But while the Challenger and Charger do seem immortal, they are eventually going to have to invest some money there. Hopefully they're willing.

    Dodge is like Pontiac in another way. Dodge shares showrooms with Chrysler, Jeep, and Ram. Pontiac shared them with Buick and GMC. There's no reason to kill Dodge because it's not a standalone brand supporting an network of dealerships. They can pare down the model line, as they have, to just the core products that really give it an identify. Pontiac should have been like this too. There was no reason to continue to push out a full line of Pontiacs using a rebadged Equinox, Cruze, and (gag) Aveo. They could have just had a Solstice and a G8, maybe a Firebird or GTO, sitting in a showroom with the Buicks and GMCs, just like Dodge has a small portion of the FCA dealerships.
    Last edited by ksr; 04-28-2019 at 07:35 AM.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    Quote Originally Posted by ksr View Post
    I don't understand why they had to create a Ram brand separate from Dodge.

    I don't think that Dodge is necessarily dying. But while the Challenger and Charger do seem immortal, they are eventually going to have to invest some money there. Hopefully they're willing.

    Dodge is like Pontiac in another way. Dodge shares showrooms with Chrysler, Jeep, and Ram. Pontiac shared them with Buick and GMC. There's no reason to kill Dodge because it's not a standalone brand supporting an network of dealerships. They can pare down the model line, as they have, to just the core products that really give it an identify. Pontiac should have been like this too. There was no reason to continue to push out a full line of Pontiacs using a rebadged Equinox, Cruze, and (gag) Aveo. They could have just had a Solstice and a G8, maybe a Firebird or GTO, sitting in a showroom with the Buicks and GMCs, just like Dodge has a small portion of the FCA dealerships.
    In the early '90's my sources inside Chrysler told me the Dodge Studio had photos and research on Pontiac all over their Studio. They wanted to be like Pontiac.
    Fast forward 20 years; Pontiac is toast, and Dodge became the 'new' Pontiac. Go figure.
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    Re: Pontiac, killed 10 years ago today

    I still own my first car- '64 GP. Have had 7 other full-size Pontiacs throughout the '60s. They were #3 in the market for the entire decade for very real, tangible reasons. And they influenced just about every other brand- when staid AMC started building V8 musclecars and Mercedes reverse-engineered one of Pontiac's factory race car engines, you know that's truth.

    Was at a small B-O-P event yesterday, watched a few dozen Pontiac ripping down the strip. A friend's '67 LeMans coupe has run a best of 9.5 in the quarter to date.

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