Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history - Page 3

  1. Welcome to GM Inside News Forum – General discussion forum for GM

    Welcome to GM Inside News Forum - a website dedicated to all things GM.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join GM Inside News Forum today!
     
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 79

Thread: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

  1. #31
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    St. George, Ut.
    Posts
    8,552
    Thanks
    10,454
    Thanked 2,823 Times in 1,848 Posts
    My Ride
    2016 Nissan Rogue SV AWD

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by eaton53 View Post
    This is why Volts & ELRs work.
    You can do your 30-40 miles on electric, but don't have to waste a bunch of time charging if you want to go farther.
    Much cheaper to buy as well. Even a CPO '16 ELR is under $30K now.
    That's exactly the point and with the Hybrid if you drive it right you still always have gas in there for the emergency situation. The electric car has no backup. You are stuck or you hopefully find a place to charge if travelling and then sit and wait even on a quick charge scenario instead of just filling the tank in a few minutes and being on your way.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  3. #32
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    7,425
    Thanks
    675
    Thanked 2,284 Times in 1,778 Posts
    My Ride
    VW Touareg 3.0 V6 TDI

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by chinamonty View Post
    it is just a matter of horses for courses. Some areas are more suited to electric vehicles than others.here in Australia we have little use for studded tyres as we don't have ice much but you guys do so you have a market we don't the same could apply to electric vehicles. half the US may find them attractive and half no so. The one thing that intrigues me is that Norway is embracing electric vehicles (even though it is still only 2%) and I am under the impression it gets a bit cold there. Is it just that they don;'t have to drive far that makes electric vehicles viable there?
    Norway has the ideal terrain and climate for hydroelectric power - and the money from North Sea oil to invest in infrastructure - it's not a valid example of electrification for any other country.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ruperts Trooper For This Useful Post:

    Extreme4x4 (07-17-2019),gkr778 (07-17-2019),Neanderthal (07-16-2019),richmond2000 (07-18-2019)

  5. #33
    3.6 Liter SIDI V6
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,035
    Thanks
    54
    Thanked 89 Times in 60 Posts

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by eaton53 View Post
    This is why Volts & ELRs work.
    You can do your 30-40 miles on electric, but don't have to waste a bunch of time charging if you want to go farther.
    Much cheaper to buy as well. Even a CPO '16 ELR is under $30K now.
    lol at Volt....little battery paired to a little engine paired to a CVT transmission....so exciting. I want a fun car, Model 3 SR+ is rwd and does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds, and has all the range i need ~345 days a year. Other few days I'll gladly grab something to eat while it's charging.
    Last edited by Member17739; 07-16-2019 at 04:46 PM.

  6. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  7. #34
    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 BORG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Rochester Hills, MI, USA
    Posts
    1,959
    Thanks
    81
    Thanked 610 Times in 283 Posts

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    I think you have to be pretty uninformed about the technology to accept this thesis. All I can say is that once EVs are getting 400+ miles of range (which we are on the cusp of now), the margins of error (such as cold weather loss) doesn't matter anymore. And the energy density of batteries continues to increase, while the energy density of a gas tank never has. Considering the rate of change in battery and motor tech compared to ICE, we could easily see range vastly surpass gas tanks this decade, not to mention decades from now...all without penalty to size or performance. Furthermore, the only way to dramatically increase performance affordably is through electrification. And charging times continue to accelerate to absurd levels that could very closely resemble filling up a gas tank. So on those occasional road trips you have a solution that isn't nearly as bad as it use to be, and don't forget you will never have to fill up at a gas station for the majority of your daily commutes.

    The tech is advancing so quickly and the Automakers know this. It's a mistake to think Electrification is about Zero Emissions alone, it's about making a vastly superior car that is faster, quieter, more responsive, safer, bigger, more reliable, smarter, etc. It opens up a tremendous amount of possibilities. I don't understand why this part of the conversation is missing all the time. I assume it's just politics and/or skepticism.

    That being said, I am buying a new car this week and it's not a BEV or even a Hybrid, but I certainly see it coming and I know the mainstream makers will get it in shape when it's ready. There is certainly an interim solution and I would pay attention to Ford and Toyota in particular with their Hybrid approach. Ford's Hybrids are more about adding performance and capability without sacrificing fuel economy, and of course there are high efficiency Hybrids. But they need and WANT to make electrification happen for many more reasons than is being considered. We are living in an amazing time and the future is quite clear not because it's the right thing to do, but because it's the BEST thing to do. And those that can't keep up, will not make it.
    Last edited by BORG; 07-16-2019 at 05:27 PM.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to BORG For This Useful Post:

    AusCalais (07-19-2019),Member17739 (07-16-2019),richmond2000 (07-18-2019)

  9. #35
    3.0 Liter SIDI V6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    SE MI
    Posts
    599
    Thanks
    335
    Thanked 222 Times in 132 Posts
    My Ride
    2008 HHR SS

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by emh View Post
    What a remarkably shortsighted take. Yeah, charging takes a while today, so it must remain that way forever.

    Even today, we have cars with close to 400mi range. That's good enough for most people even for long drives: charge while you stop for a meal or bathroom break every ~4 hours. Plus charging speed is going to be good enough pretty soon even with just incremental changes. Just a year ago, ~100kW fast charging was state of the art (the Bolt launched with 50kW max). Earlier this year, Audi announced the eTron Quattro will charge at up to 150kW and, soon after, Tesla announced the new generation of Superchargers where the Model 3 charges at up to 250kW. Porsche Taycan, when it launches later this year, will charge up to 350kW. And chargers supporting those speeds are already going up.
    And, the cars prices continue to rise, as Tesla continues to struggle to deliver. I can't take them seriously. Everyone I know that went out there has been, "oh ****, these guys don't know anything, and they don't listen...". I predict losses once the public realizes there is no "there" there. It's not hard to fathom. Losses on each vehicle sold. Complete and total reliance on credits. Until Trump shuts them off. Survive on your own! This is America!

    Losers. Other than OVER-HYPED, there is no other appropriate word.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Chassis Guy For This Useful Post:

    gkr778 (07-16-2019)

  11. #36
    3.6 Liter SIDI V6
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,200
    Thanks
    19
    Thanked 22 Times in 12 Posts

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    I'm not sure all electric is gonna really displace ICE right away. I don't like all the commies pushing it with subsidies to accelerate with my money when I'm not yet fully on board for sure. But will say I think it's eventually coming.... Just not how the commies really pushing it hard in the here and now think. It's never gonna work with 5 minute few hundred mile charging at every corner aluminum smelting capable charging stations... Even if the batteries can allow. More likely scenario is that battery energy density get to point a reasonable packaged vehicle can have 2000 miles of charge and is really only trickle charging most nights unless on some grand tour.

  12. #37
    emh
    emh is offline
    7.0 Liter LS7 V8 emh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,458
    Thanks
    305
    Thanked 964 Times in 513 Posts

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by Chassis Guy View Post
    And, the cars prices continue to rise, as Tesla continues to struggle to deliver. I can't take them seriously.
    My post wasn't about Tesla. It was about progress on charging in general. In case you missed it, I pointed out progress by Audi and Porsche as well as Tesla. But since you brought it up...

    Not being able to deliver to demand, at 10-20+k units per month, with rising ATPs is a bad thing now? I can think of plenty of other premium American cars that would LOVE to have that problem.

    Survive on your own! This is America!
    LOL! Did you just post that on a GM board?
    "The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion" -- John Lawton

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to emh For This Useful Post:

    richmond2000 (07-18-2019)

  14. #38
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8 Premium Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    The land of the hethan
    Posts
    9,995
    Thanks
    1,444
    Thanked 3,314 Times in 2,188 Posts
    My Ride
    The coffin on wheels

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by emh View Post
    My post wasn't about Tesla. It was about progress on charging in general. In case you missed it, I pointed out progress by Audi and Porsche as well as Tesla. But since you brought it up...

    Not being able to deliver to demand, at 10-20+k units per month, with rising ATPs is a bad thing now? I can think of plenty of other premium American cars that would LOVE to have that problem.
    Tesla has just dropped prices for the 3 again in response to shrinking tax credits, increased sales of the 3 are now replacing deliveries of more expensive S and X models.

    https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...el-3-price-cut

    So yeah, all is not as rosy as it seems at Tesla, it constantly battles against the odds to maintain sufficient cash reserves for current operations, let alone the ability to fund next generation vehicles..

    To me it's clear that Ford, GM and even the euro are sitting back, letting Tesla do all the hard pioneering work of establishing credibility of BEVs, a decent charging grid and most importantly, selling the sizzle of range and power. Ford GM and the Euros as late arrivals riding on the back of all the heavy lifting done by Tesla, will have nowhere near the start up costs and the funding necessary to go in hard and deep.
    Last edited by jpd80; 07-17-2019 at 04:56 AM.

  15. #39
    emh
    emh is offline
    7.0 Liter LS7 V8 emh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,458
    Thanks
    305
    Thanked 964 Times in 513 Posts

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
    Tesla has just dropped prices for the 3 again in response to shrinking tax credits, increased sales of the 3 are now replacing deliveries of more expensive S and X models.

    https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...el-3-price-cut
    This is exactly how the EV incentives are supposed to work. As the incentives expire, prices should go down. The last time this happened 6 months ago, there was a lot of hand-wringing about demand. As some of us predicted, there was a short term sales drop as the expiring incentives pulled up some sales, but that turned out to be a near-term effect. Let's if this time around is any different.

    The S and X need a refresh/update soon. But that's not a priority for Tesla, I guess, as their drop is small compared to the increase in 3 sales.

    To me it's clear that Ford, GM and even the euro are sitting back, letting Tesla do all the hard pioneering work of establishing credibility of BEVs, a decent charging grid and most importantly, selling the sizzle of range and power. Ford GM and the Euros as late arrivals riding on the back of all the heavy lifting done by Tesla, will have nowhere near the start up costs and the funding necessary to go in hard and deep.
    Ford and (to a lesser extent) GM are sitting back. But VW is not. Especially the premium VW group brands, Audi and Porsche in particular, are investing heavily in EVs. And I suspect they will be the big winners among current major manufacturers in the EV space. And that's too bad because GM had a huge head-start in technology that they are squandering away. But I guess that's what GM has been doing on pretty much every new technology for the past few decades.
    Last edited by emh; 07-17-2019 at 08:54 AM.
    "The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion" -- John Lawton

  16. #40
    3.0 Liter SIDI V6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    SE MI
    Posts
    599
    Thanks
    335
    Thanked 222 Times in 132 Posts
    My Ride
    2008 HHR SS

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Their delivery remains anemic, and behind Musk's tweets in volume. I know people who are, or were there, and quality is a really big issue. When they go from GM or FCA, and say wow, this is bad, it IS bad. Not gonna sugar-coat it. It is well below big 3 levels. Getting to the point where they don't have to fix bunches of them in the yard is when they become legitimate. They aren't there yet. At all. I hear it is about 25 years behind.

    They remain supported by a government construct, and not a going concern. It is because of their product and processes, and not workers that would be deprived of pensions or benefits. HUGE difference. Stand on your own.

  17. #41
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8 Premium Member Extreme4x4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Payson, AZ
    Posts
    6,044
    Thanks
    5,184
    Thanked 2,705 Times in 1,187 Posts
    My Ride
    2013 Ford Explorer Sport

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    So, now that the US is energy independent, we want to be beholden to China?? That is where much of the battery components and raw materials come from. So, we will switch from being beholden to the Middle East to China. Oh goody. Now lets talk about our electrical grid, which is running on borrowed time as it is. Electrical companies have monopolies and buy off Corporation Commissions to get increases whenever they want for any made up reason they decide on. So, as an electric car owner, I will be beholden to China and the Electric companies.

    Does anyone have an accurate and realistic estimate of what it will take to upgrade our electrical grid (that could be shut down by hacking, making us extremely vulnerable) so that it can handle all of these mythical electric cars??
    The resident "girl"

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Extreme4x4 For This Useful Post:

    1958carnut (07-17-2019),Neanderthal (07-18-2019)

  19. #42
    3.6 Liter SIDI V6
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,035
    Thanks
    54
    Thanked 89 Times in 60 Posts

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme4x4 View Post
    So, now that the US is energy independent, we want to be beholden to China?? That is where much of the battery components and raw materials come from. So, we will switch from being beholden to the Middle East to China. Oh goody. Now lets talk about our electrical grid, which is running on borrowed time as it is. Electrical companies have monopolies and buy off Corporation Commissions to get increases whenever they want for any made up reason they decide on. So, as an electric car owner, I will be beholden to China and the Electric companies.

    Does anyone have an accurate and realistic estimate of what it will take to upgrade our electrical grid (that could be shut down by hacking, making us extremely vulnerable) so that it can handle all of these mythical electric cars??
    Great majority of EV charging happens overnight in the owners' garages. This is when electricity use is way under the daily peak so the strain on the network is not as big as some think.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Member17739 For This Useful Post:

    richmond2000 (07-18-2019)

  21. #43
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8 Premium Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    The land of the hethan
    Posts
    9,995
    Thanks
    1,444
    Thanked 3,314 Times in 2,188 Posts
    My Ride
    The coffin on wheels

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by emh View Post
    This is exactly how the EV incentives are supposed to work. As the incentives expire, prices should go down. The last time this happened 6 months ago, there was a lot of hand-wringing about demand. As some of us predicted, there was a short term sales drop as the expiring incentives pulled up some sales, but that turned out to be a near-term effect. Let's if this time around is any different.

    The S and X need a refresh/update soon. But that's not a priority for Tesla, I guess, as their drop is small compared to the increase in 3 sales.
    So what happened to that huge line up of 3 buyers?
    Let me guess they all want base model 3s on which, Musk is not willing to take a bath. The biggest issue as it always has been confronting Tesla is cash flow and liquidity, as compared to glowing revenue figures...When Tesla loses its high profit sales, Wall Street will throw it under a metaphoric bus and investors will move on...



    Ford and (to a lesser extent) GM are sitting back. But VW is not. Especially the premium VW group brands, Audi and Porsche in particular, are investing heavily in EVs. And I suspect they will be the big winners among current major manufacturers in the EV space. And that's too bad because GM had a huge head-start in technology that they are squandering away. But I guess that's what GM has been doing on pretty much every new technology for the past few decades.
    There is a difference between sitting back and doing nothing, Ford and GM have transferred billions away from regular vehicle investment into EV and AV, VW in particular has struck accord with Ford and its plans have similar goals in certain areas. The unified charging network planed for Europe makes for breath taking reading, the ground work there is on a much stronger foundation.

    What we must understand here is that the European and Chinese markets are needs driven by legislation where as the US situation is far more passive, encouraging buyers to electrification on preference. GM and Ford still have tens of Billions to make in truck and Utility segments where Europe and China have impending time limits where the switch is compulsory. The US can watch dispassionately and opt in when it suits.

    Tesla has the market virtually to itself, if it's not making billions upon billions in profit, then it will go broke when the majors join the EV market.
    Last edited by jpd80; 07-18-2019 at 01:40 AM.

  22. #44
    4.4 Liter Supercharged Northstar IROCNROL1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Fairfax, Iowa
    Posts
    2,760
    Thanks
    167
    Thanked 169 Times in 91 Posts

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by jasaero View Post
    I'm not sure all electric is gonna really displace ICE right away. I don't like all the commies pushing it with subsidies to accelerate with my money when I'm not yet fully on board for sure. But will say I think it's eventually coming.... Just not how the commies really pushing it hard in the here and now think. It's never gonna work with 5 minute few hundred mile charging at every corner aluminum smelting capable charging stations... Even if the batteries can allow. More likely scenario is that battery energy density get to point a reasonable packaged vehicle can have 2000 miles of charge and is really only trickle charging most nights unless on some grand tour.
    If they can get 2000 miles of range out of it then the charging issue would become a nonissue. If the said hypothetical vehicle can be sold at 40 grand profitably, without government subsidies, then I'll be first in line.

    Until that point, I'll take a wait and see attitude. I think that's a reasonable position to take as I can't drive a promise.
    It sounded pretty good until I actually said it.

  23. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to IROCNROL1 For This Useful Post:

    1958carnut (07-18-2019),Chassis Guy (07-18-2019),gkr778 (07-18-2019)

  24. #45
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member Neanderthal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    A sunny cave in Transylvania
    Posts
    33,608
    Thanks
    7,720
    Thanked 6,154 Times in 3,892 Posts
    My Ride
    17 Soul&/01 PT LTD/15 JD130

    Re: Autoextremist: the biggest bet in automotive history

    Quote Originally Posted by Extreme4x4 View Post
    So, now that the US is energy independent, we want to be beholden to China?? That is where much of the battery components and raw materials come from. So, we will switch from being beholden to the Middle East to China. Oh goody. Now lets talk about our electrical grid, which is running on borrowed time as it is. Electrical companies have monopolies and buy off Corporation Commissions to get increases whenever they want for any made up reason they decide on. So, as an electric car owner, I will be beholden to China and the Electric companies.

    Does anyone have an accurate and realistic estimate of what it will take to upgrade our electrical grid (that could be shut down by hacking, making us extremely vulnerable) so that it can handle all of these mythical electric cars??
    That Manhattan Institute article that PDL included breaks it down--NPI--pretty clearly. And sad face it's not pretty.

    https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...ear-impossible

    I'd print it except it's about 2000 (see below) or 20,000 pages long!

    Quote Originally Posted by IROCNROL1 View Post
    If they can get 2000 miles of range out of it then the charging issue would become a nonissue. If the said hypothetical vehicle can be sold at 40 grand profitably, without government subsidies, then I'll be first in line.

    Until that point, I'll take a wait and see attitude. I think that's a reasonable position to take as I can't drive a promise.
    2000. Why not 20,000????? I see that happening pretty soon. Any time now. It's inevitable. Laws of physics will be reviewed by the UN and the EU, and some things will just have to be changed.

    As my idiotic arrogant insecure incompetent ass-kissing boss had on a humble wall hanging in her office, once upon a time, "If it is to be, it is up to me!" Now that is leadership. The same leadership that will bring us a 2000 mile 'lektrik JohnnyCab. Yes we can! Change, change we can...
    Last edited by Neanderthal; 07-18-2019 at 11:33 AM.
    2017 Soul &, Titanium

    Where liberty dwells, there is my country. Benjamin Franklin

    The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. Thomas Jefferson

    Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content

  25. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Neanderthal For This Useful Post:

    Extreme4x4 (07-18-2019),gkr778 (07-18-2019)

  26. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 2 guests)

  1. jasaero

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.1.2