Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL - Page 2

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Poll: Which company has a better brand ambassador?

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Thread: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

  1. #16
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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by longislander View Post
    Lexus is not a Cadillac competitor. It is a 2nd tier "near luxury" brand along with Acura, Buick, Infiniti, Lincoln, and Volvo. Cadillac competes in the big leagues with Audi, BMW, Jaguar, and Mercedes.
    Quote Originally Posted by nruggiero View Post
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    LOL at all the FORD fans in this thread thinking they got a one up. This is the Yukon Denali and trust me it's going to blow away the Navigator. Escalade is gunning for RR/Bentley level of interiors and beyond. I've talked to someone about this on another site that confirmed it Navigator isn't even being bench-marked at Cadillac too low for them.
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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by longislander View Post
    Lexus is not a Cadillac competitor. It is a 2nd tier "near luxury" brand along with Acura, Buick, Infiniti, Lincoln, and Volvo. Cadillac competes in the big leagues with Audi, BMW, Jaguar, and Mercedes.
    Normally I would agree with You simply by comparing the products. Unfortunately the truth is brutal. The best example is the thread showing the ambassadors I posted. Cadillac might build world-class cars (even make Elmiraj come true) but with GM's corporate mentality/lack of resources/bean counting no one in the world outside U.S. will even know about it. Mission failed.

    BTW. Here's another ambassador who is not a low-rent one. He actually hasn't given Infiniti much in case of sales (which are nonexistent). However, thanks to him (and e-mail spam whole Europe receives) my boss finally knows what Infiniti is. At the same time Cadillac is an old pink car for him that doesn't produce modern cars. Therefore we can say Infiniti efforts achieved something. And Cadillac's sponsorship deal? I don't know how much money they paid Mr. Antoine but it's surely wasted.
    Last edited by CarFreak77; 11-04-2015 at 04:34 AM.
    How GM kills Cadillac's global image, read here:Hidden Content
    I wasn't around during Cadillac's last heyday, so this is the first time I've ever written the following words: The car to beat, the best car in its class, is a Cadillac. You're done playing offense, Cadillac. I hope you can learn how to play defense.
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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by longislander View Post
    Lexus is not a Cadillac competitor. It is a 2nd tier "near luxury" brand along with Acura, Buick, Infiniti, Lincoln, and Volvo. Cadillac competes in the big leagues with Audi, BMW, Jaguar, and Mercedes.
    Let me give my rationale for this. I have a simple way of measuring.
    I have a Pontiac Solstice. When I pull up to a traffic light next to a Miata, I look at the other driver, nod, etc. When I pull up next to a Corvette I avert my gaze
    In my 2014 CTS, when I pull up next to a BMW 5-series, Audi A6, or Mercedes E-Class, I can confidently look at the other driver, knowing that my car is fully equal to his in prestige. I couldn't do that in a Lexus.

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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by longislander View Post
    Let me give my rationale for this. I have a simple way of measuring.
    I have a Pontiac Solstice. When I pull up to a traffic light next to a Miata, I look at the other driver, nod, etc. When I pull up next to a Corvette I avert my gaze
    In my 2014 CTS, when I pull up next to a BMW 5-series, Audi A6, or Mercedes E-Class, I can confidently look at the other driver, knowing that my car is fully equal to his in prestige. I couldn't do that in a Lexus.
    Yeah but your car isn't fully equal to their prestige, an A6 maybe, though Audi is also Tier 2 with Cadillac.

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    GMI Staff Member Premium Member Envoy4Life's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by longislander View Post
    Let me give my rationale for this. I have a simple way of measuring.
    I have a Pontiac Solstice. When I pull up to a traffic light next to a Miata, I look at the other driver, nod, etc. When I pull up next to a Corvette I avert my gaze
    In my 2014 CTS, when I pull up next to a BMW 5-series, Audi A6, or Mercedes E-Class, I can confidently look at the other driver, knowing that my car is fully equal to his in prestige. I couldn't do that in a Lexus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
    Yeah but your car isn't fully equal to their prestige, an A6 maybe, though Audi is also Tier 2 with Cadillac.
    Audi is way, WAY higher than Cadillac. It isn't even close. Audi is right on par with Mercedes-Benz and BMW.

    I rank mainstream luxury like this:

    Tier I

    Mercedes-Benz
    Audi
    BMW
    Land Rover
    Maserati

    Basically the Germans, with Land Rover and Maserati sprinkled in for good measure. Porsche is also a luxury car, but it favors sport, but it would sit here as well.

    Tier II

    Jaguar
    Lexus

    Tier II features two completely different brands. One is very old and got to Tier II from Tier I because of putting out trash during Ford's ownership of it. The other was happy to sell you an RX and nothing more for over a decade, and did quite well doing so. Both are looking to rise back to Tier I, and I think both will succeed in doing so.

    Tier III

    Cadillac
    Infiniti

    The "I wanna be BMW" tier. Meh.

    Tier IV

    Lincoln
    Acura
    Volvo
    Genesis (for now, it'll move up to Tier III when it starts to gain traction)

    This one is the most interesting. Acura buyers are pretty loyal to the brand, Genesis is a brand new brand that I think will do well when it starts to gain a proper dealership network and vehicle lineup, and Lincoln/Volvo are taking routes with products/focus that I think will help them flourish.
    Current:

    2019 Cadillac CTS 3.6 Luxury AWD

    Hidden Content Originally Posted by Greg.Botts Hidden Content
    LOL at all the FORD fans in this thread thinking they got a one up. This is the Yukon Denali and trust me it's going to blow away the Navigator. Escalade is gunning for RR/Bentley level of interiors and beyond. I've talked to someone about this on another site that confirmed it Navigator isn't even being bench-marked at Cadillac too low for them.
    ^GOLD^

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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    If Lexus brings that four door luxury show car from Tokyo to market....they will have a huge increase in sales.

    That was one sexy four door.

    As far as tier I their 2, tier 3 ?

    Leasing a German car makes them attractive....owning them much less so.

    I'd hesitate to own any of those German cars out of warranty....

    Same goes for jaguar while Lexus would be less frightening...it's just they are soooo boring to look at.


    Tesla has been resetting the market segment.....forcing jaguar to lower prices five grand per model across the board.

    I look forward to the new production continental release this coming show season. Might cause a resurgence in American luxury car sales.

    Cadillacs idea to unilaterally raise prices has been a dismal failure in the marketplace.

    Everyone knew it was BS and it's lease rates weren't competitive either....hence Cadillac sales are in the toilet.

    When will Cadillac learn? Probably never....

    Infiniti and Acura are in the dumper too...(and they are giving those lease deals away)

    Luxury CUVs are where the volume is going. Those that create contemporary and engaging products in the cuv arena will survive....

    Those that don't won't...
    Last edited by JBsZ06; 11-04-2015 at 03:04 PM.

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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy4Life View Post
    Audi is way, WAY higher than Cadillac. It isn't even close. Audi is right on par with Mercedes-Benz and BMW.

    I rank mainstream luxury like this:

    Tier I

    Mercedes-Benz
    Audi
    BMW
    Land Rover
    Maserati

    Basically the Germans, with Land Rover and Maserati sprinkled in for good measure. Porsche is also a luxury car, but it favors sport, but it would sit here as well.

    Tier II

    Jaguar
    Lexus

    Tier II features two completely different brands. One is very old and got to Tier II from Tier I because of putting out trash during Ford's ownership of it. The other was happy to sell you an RX and nothing more for over a decade, and did quite well doing so. Both are looking to rise back to Tier I, and I think both will succeed in doing so.

    Tier III

    Cadillac
    Infiniti

    The "I wanna be BMW" tier. Meh.

    Tier IV

    Lincoln
    Acura
    Volvo
    Genesis (for now, it'll move up to Tier III when it starts to gain traction)

    This one is the most interesting. Acura buyers are pretty loyal to the brand, Genesis is a brand new brand that I think will do well when it starts to gain a proper dealership network and vehicle lineup, and Lincoln/Volvo are taking routes with products/focus that I think will help them flourish.
    Of course you realize this is all in your head and each persons head has their own hierarchy of best luxury?


    Tier I
    Rolls Royce
    Bentley
    Bugatti
    Ferrari
    Porches

    Tier II
    Mercedes
    BMW
    Cadillac
    Audi
    Jaguar
    Maserati
    Lexus


    Tier II
    Volvo
    Buick
    Acura
    Infiniti
    Lincoln
    Lexus
    Last edited by mbukukanyau; 11-04-2015 at 03:35 PM.

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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by JBsZ06 View Post
    Cadillacs idea to unilaterally raise prices has been a dismal failure in the marketplace.

    Everyone knew it was BS and it's lease rates weren't competitive either....hence Cadillac sales are in the toilet.

    When will Cadillac learn? Probably never...

    Cadillac had to hike pricing, there is no way they can justify all the engineering investment without moving prices up, They had to know they would take a hit in sales.. but the Escalade and SRX made up for it.
    Last edited by mbukukanyau; 11-04-2015 at 03:49 PM.

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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Caddy needs to step up their dealership standards before any thoughts of being near the top tier.


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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Hmmmm well, for one, lets not forget the rest of the 'Ambassador' 'efforts'.





    Like -


    Woman crashes Lexus into NC Starbucks | WNCN
    wncn.com/2015/07/26/woman-crashes-lexus-into-nc-starbucks/
    WNCN
    Jul 26, 2015 - Crews removed the car, a white Lexus, from the Starbucks. WSOC-TV reported that the driver, a woman, had just arrived at the store when the crash happened.

    SUV crashes through front of Bel Air bookstore - Baltimore Sun
    https://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...to-bookstore-0...
    The Baltimore Sun
    Sep 22, 2015 - An SUV crashed through the front window of the Barnes & Noble bookstore at Bel ... The 2006 Lexus SUV went about two-thirds of the way into the Barnes and ...

    Emotional Vigil Held for Teen Couple Killed in Hacienda ...
    ktla.com/.../2-teens-killed-2-others-injured-after-airborne-car-cras...
    KTLA
    Oct 19, 2015 - The Lexus was unable to negotiate an intended right turn, collided with a raised ... A car overturned in a fatal two-vehicle crash in Hacienda Heights on Sunday, ...

    Two injured after driver crashes into Yum! Kitchen in St ...
    https://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f....../318189851/
    Star Tribune
    Jul 23, 2015 - The driver of a Lexus sedan crashed into Yum! Kitchen and Bakery in St. Louis Park on Wednesday, injuring two and causing major damage.

    Car Crashes into Two Stores, Four Cars in Valley Village ...
    https://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...tores-Four-Car...
    KNBC
    Sep 4, 2015 - The crash happened around 4:40 pm. in a shopping center at Whitsett Avenue and Riverside Drive when the a Lexus slammed into a liquor store. The driver ...

    1 dead after car crashes into fence off Griffin Road | News ...
    https://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...crash/34944818
    WPLG
    Aug 27, 2015 - Car crashes into fence outside The Field Irish Pub & Eatery ... Broward Sheriff's Office deputies said a white Lexus, driven by Larry Lallo, 32, struck the rear of a ...

    Police: Driver hit gas instead of brake, crashes into Starbucks
    https://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...hes-int...WBTV
    Jul 26, 2015 - The vehicle then crashed into the Starbucks store on Knockando Lane Sunday morning. ... Crews removed the car, a white Lexus, from the Starbucks. The store ...




















    http://stmedia.startribune.com/image...cfbb07bd5.jpeg




    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 11-04-2015 at 09:00 PM.
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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by JBsZ06 View Post
    Tesla has been resetting the market segment.....forcing jaguar to lower prices five grand per model across the board.
    How did Tesla's 70K+ Model S force Jaguar to lower prices? Sorry to be blunt because I mean no disrespect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy4Life View Post
    Tier II

    Jaguar
    Lexus

    Tier II features two completely different brands. One is very old and got to Tier II from Tier I because of putting out trash during Ford's ownership of it. The other was happy to sell you an RX and nothing more for over a decade, and did quite well doing so. Both are looking to rise back to Tier I, and I think both will succeed in doing so.
    Jaguar struggled pre-Ford. Look at the XJ and XJS. Basically, the XJ220 in concept was the only remarkable (very remarkable, in fact) Jaguar of around that time (which technically started production after Ford bought them, but I'm sure the basic concept of the car started prior). The XJ and XJS weren't remotely competitive. So while everyone is going to hate the X-Type, on the whole Jaguar exited Ford in no worse a state than they entered.

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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy4Life View Post
    Audi is way, WAY higher than Cadillac. It isn't even close. Audi is right on par with Mercedes-Benz and BMW.

    I rank mainstream luxury like this:

    Tier I

    Mercedes-Benz
    Audi
    BMW
    Land Rover
    Maserati

    Basically the Germans, with Land Rover and Maserati sprinkled in for good measure. Porsche is also a luxury car, but it favors sport, but it would sit here as well.

    Tier II

    Jaguar
    Lexus

    Tier II features two completely different brands. One is very old and got to Tier II from Tier I because of putting out trash during Ford's ownership of it. The other was happy to sell you an RX and nothing more for over a decade, and did quite well doing so. Both are looking to rise back to Tier I, and I think both will succeed in doing so.

    Tier III

    Cadillac
    Infiniti

    The "I wanna be BMW" tier. Meh.

    Tier IV

    Lincoln
    Acura
    Volvo
    Genesis (for now, it'll move up to Tier III when it starts to gain traction)

    This one is the most interesting. Acura buyers are pretty loyal to the brand, Genesis is a brand new brand that I think will do well when it starts to gain a proper dealership network and vehicle lineup, and Lincoln/Volvo are taking routes with products/focus that I think will help them flourish.
    You may rank it that way but that's not how it's ranked in the industry itself. These rankings are based on a combination of sales volume and brand cachet. Country of origin is irrelevant. Simply being German isn't a golden ticket to Tier 1, as Audi has continuously found out.

    It goes like this in North America:

    Tier 1:

    Mercedes
    BMW
    Lexus

    These are the top 3 best selling luxury brands in the US, neck in neck for sales, compete in all segments of the market from base FWD to full size RWD, have the most cachet overall.

    Tier 2:
    Audi
    Cadillac
    Infiniti

    These are the underdogs, perpetually chasing the top 3 in both volume and cachet. The sales volume gap between these brands and the top 3 brands is noticeable.

    Tier 3:
    Acura
    Lincoln
    Buick

    These are the near luxury brands. They have decent volume, but their image limits how high they can go as far as product offerings. They have no RWD offerings or their flagships top out at the midsize segment. They compete for similar buyers as higher end mainstream cars (i.e. loaded Accords, Camrys, Passats etc...)

    The other brands like Jaguar, Volvo, Porsche etc... are too small in volume to be relevant enough to rank.

    Tier II features two completely different brands. One is very old and got to Tier II from Tier I because of putting out trash during Ford's ownership of it. The other was happy to sell you an RX and nothing more for over a decade, and did quite well doing so. Both are looking to rise back to Tier I, and I think both will succeed in doing so.
    It's a common misconception that Lexus has been "happy to only sell you an RX for the last 10 years". Lexus only lost its crown as the #1 best selling full size RWD luxury sedan in 2011 to the S-class, a crown it had held for nearly 2 decades straight. It's also one of the few brands that stands to retake that crown with the next LS. Cadillac? Audi? Jaguar? lol. No one can say that with a straight face. Not even BMW with the 7 series has as good a shot as the next LS does to take out the S-class in volume in the US.
    Last edited by Mr. Burns; 11-04-2015 at 09:33 PM.

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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    Of course you realize this is all in your head and each persons head has their own hierarchy of best luxury?


    Tier I
    Rolls Royce
    Bentley
    Bugatti
    Ferrari
    Porches

    Tier II
    Mercedes
    BMW
    Cadillac
    Audi
    Jaguar
    Maserati
    Lexus


    Tier II
    Volvo
    Buick
    Acura
    Infiniti
    Lincoln
    Lexus
    You're including brands like Rolls Royce, when I clearly stated "MAINSTREAM" brands.

    But, I can't agree with your list. Cadillac isn't a higher tier brand than Infiniti, sorry. And Cadillac certainly isn't on the same Tier as Mercedes-Benz, let alone Maserati.

    Outside of our little GMI microcosm, Cadillac is no where near where you ranked it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphibian View Post
    Jaguar struggled pre-Ford. Look at the XJ and XJS. Basically, the XJ220 in concept was the only remarkable (very remarkable, in fact) Jaguar of around that time (which technically started production after Ford bought them, but I'm sure the basic concept of the car started prior). The XJ and XJS weren't remotely competitive. So while everyone is going to hate the X-Type, on the whole Jaguar exited Ford in no worse a state than they entered.
    X-Type. Lol. That thing was horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
    You may rank it that way but that's not how it's ranked in the industry itself. These rankings are based on a combination of sales volume and brand cachet. Country of origin is irrelevant. Simply being German isn't a golden ticket to Tier 1, as Audi has continuously found out.

    It goes like this in North America:

    Tier 1:

    Mercedes
    BMW
    Lexus

    These are the top 3 best selling luxury brands in the US, neck in neck for sales, compete in all segments of the market from base FWD to full size RWD, have the most cachet overall.

    Tier 2:
    Audi
    Cadillac
    Infiniti

    These are the underdogs, perpetually chasing the top 3 in both volume and cachet. The sales volume gap between these brands and the top 3 brands is noticeable.

    Tier 3:
    Acura
    Lincoln
    Buick

    These are the near luxury brands. They have decent volume, but their image limits how high they can go as far as product offerings. They have no RWD offerings or their flagships top out at the midsize segment. They compete for similar buyers as higher end mainstream cars (i.e. loaded Accords, Camrys, Passats etc...)

    The other brands like Jaguar, Volvo, Porsche etc... are too small in volume to be relevant enough to rank.
    Country of origin doesn't have anything to do with it, you're right. It just so happens that the top three brands come from Germany, with others coming from other parts of Europe.

    No American brand, outside of maybe niche Tesla, are on the same Tier as the Europeans.

    You mention "as Audi has continuously found out". Are you aware that Audi drivers make more money, and are better educated than the buyers of their competition?

    Audi is absolutely Tier I, and a force to be reckoned with. It's certainly higher than Cadillac and Lexus, specifically in terms of an aspirational car. Ask people what luxury car they'd like, and I guarantee you a you'll get a bunch that say "Audi". Especially the younger crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Burns View Post
    It's a common misconception that Lexus has been "happy to only sell you an RX for the last 10 years". Lexus only lost its crown as the #1 best selling full size RWD luxury sedan in 2011 to the S-class, a crown it had held for nearly 2 decades straight. It's also one of the few brands that stands to retake that crown with the next LS. Cadillac? Audi? Jaguar? lol. No one can say that with a straight face. Not even BMW with the 7 series has as good a shot as the next LS does to take out the S-class in volume in the US.
    Lexus makes, and has made a living on the ES and RX. The LS only outsold the S Class because the S Class costs substantially more in one of its largest markets, the United States. Like, at least a third more.

    Lexus is a strong brand, as is Audi. Both are stronger than Cadillac. So going back to what started this:

    Quote Originally Posted by longislander View Post
    In my 2014 CTS, when I pull up next to a BMW 5-series, Audi A6, or Mercedes E-Class, I can confidently look at the other driver, knowing that my car is fully equal to his in prestige. I couldn't do that in a Lexus.
    No, Cadillac isn't a higher tiered brand than Lexus. You certainly can't look at an E, 5, or A6 driver knowing you have an equally prestigious car. Sorry, you don't.

    The Lexus driver doesn't either, but Lexus is higher up on the totem pole than Cadillac is.

    But a better question is, if you're that insecure about prestige and being ashamed at looking something, why not just buy a BMercAudi from the get go?
    Current:

    2019 Cadillac CTS 3.6 Luxury AWD

    Hidden Content Originally Posted by Greg.Botts Hidden Content
    LOL at all the FORD fans in this thread thinking they got a one up. This is the Yukon Denali and trust me it's going to blow away the Navigator. Escalade is gunning for RR/Bentley level of interiors and beyond. I've talked to someone about this on another site that confirmed it Navigator isn't even being bench-marked at Cadillac too low for them.
    ^GOLD^

    Hidden Content

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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy4Life View Post

    Country of origin doesn't have anything to do with it, you're right. It just so happens that the top three brands come from Germany, with others coming from other parts of Europe.

    No American brand, outside of maybe niche Tesla, are on the same Tier as the Europeans.
    What is your definition of "Tier" based on?

    You mention "as Audi has continuously found out". Are you aware that Audi drivers make more money, and are better educated than the buyers of their competition?

    Audi is absolutely Tier I, and a force to be reckoned with. It's certainly higher than Cadillac and Lexus, specifically in terms of an aspirational car. Ask people what luxury car they'd like, and I guarantee you a you'll get a bunch that say "Audi". Especially the younger crowd.
    Audi continues to struggle in both overall volume (2014 sales of 182,011 units versus 339,738 for BMW, 330,391 for Mercedes, and 311,389 for Lexus), and sales of its flagship A8 sedan, which significantly lags the top three (LS, S-class, 7er) every year (about half). Audi is outsold by Lexus in every segment from the A4 segment through the SUVs/CUVs through the midsize sedan segment through the fullsize segment. Yet you group Audi in Tier 1 but Lexus in Tier 2.

    GGs.

    Audi is not in any way Tier 1 and for those reasons. Instead it represents the very top of Tier 2, which is followed by Cadillac (170,750 units) and Infiniti (117,330 units). Notice the pattern.

    And funny how supposedly young people want Audis, and yet at the entry executive level the A4 is demolished in sales by the 3 series and C-class, and yes, even the IS. Perhaps your metric of categorizing tiers isn't entirely analogous to reality.


    Lexus makes, and has made a living on the ES and RX. The LS only outsold the S Class because the S Class costs substantially more in one of its largest markets, the United States. Like, at least a third more.

    This isn't different from BMW making a living off of the 3 series. BMW sold 11,012 3 series in October, or 37% of their total sales. This is even more than the RX's share of Lexus' sales (~30%). And the 3 series in 320i variant can often be had for under $30k.

    And yet it doesn't devalue BMW any more than the RX does for Lexus. What do the two have in common? They are the founders of their segments. Segment founders typically outsell all other competitors.
    Last edited by Mr. Burns; 11-04-2015 at 10:54 PM.

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    Re: Cadillac vs. Lexus. Which company has a better brand ambassador? POLL

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy4Life View Post
    So going back to what started this:

    No, Cadillac isn't a higher tiered brand than Lexus. You certainly can't look at an E, 5, or A6 driver knowing you have an equally prestigious car. Sorry, you don't.

    The Lexus driver doesn't either, but Lexus is higher up on the totem pole than Cadillac is.

    But a better question is, if you're that insecure about prestige and being ashamed at looking something, why not just buy a BMercAudi from the get go?
    I absolutely CAN look an E, 5, or A6 driver in the eye and know that my car stands fully shoulder-to-shoulder with his. I'm not "insecure" about my car's prestige; I want my car to reflect my economic status. I wanted an AMERICAN-made, world-class luxury car, and found it in the CTS.
    You are looking at a different totem pole than I am; that's OK with me.
    Last edited by longislander; 11-05-2015 at 09:01 AM.

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