Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

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Thread: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

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    6.2 Liter LS3 V8 Orbit Orange's Avatar
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    Question Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    After reading up on a Corvette forum about the age of new Vette buyers in the mid 50's and Corvette being an "old mans car", I got to thinking.....

    Corvette sales are down (barely over 10K a year for the last 2 or 3 years), new Corvette owner ages are up. GM would like to see both of those trends reverse. Now with the C7 on the horizon I can see sales going up but not the ages going down, So to kill two birds with one stone how about offering a Corvette based two-seater Pontiac (Phoenix??? or whatever its name) with a Pontiac styled body out of light/strong steel (I'd say aluminum buts it would be too pricey I think) with the upcoming Gen V 5.3 V8 out of the upcoming trucks in place of Corvettes Gen V 6.2 V8, cheaper interior (maybe nice cloth or leatherette or a combo of both), less content than the upcoming Corvette as well for around $42,000 delivered as a base model manual? It could be optioned up with other stuff to around $50K where the Corvette starts out now.

    Would this step on Corvettes toes?

    Would this help amortize the cost of the Corvette program and draw in more sales?

    Would this get a younger buyer into a Corvette like two-seater? (Maybe steal some 370 Z type buyers???) (Maybe lure back some Trans-Am owners?)

    Thoughts you might have?

    I figure the C7 will start at or above 50K for a base model 1LT Vette that weighs 3350 pounds maybe. That will probably get you the Gen V 6.2 V8 with 450 to 475 HP and a lot of nicer interior stuff than the current C6. A 350 to 375 HP Gen V 5.3 V8 in this two-seat Pontiac with a steel body may weigh in at 3500 pounds. It would still have a good weight to power ratio and be more price attractive to some that can't swing a new Corvette but don't really want a Camaro.

    I'm just spitballing all this here. Feel free to discuss. I'd love to have some real discussion on this and debate the pros and cons so please bring them up.
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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    They alreayd have the Camaro, but I think Chevy needs a second gen Solstce/Sky. I think the chassis was pretty solid, but if they could work out some of the issues such as having an actual trunk and maybe some better interior ergornomics (Center Tunnel too big), they already have lots of great powertrains and are doing a lot better in interior designs. So it would be pretty easy for them to put together an updated Sky/ Solstice for Chevy.

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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    As far as Corvette owners go, yes Corvettes are an old man's car, so are Ferrari's and Porsche 911s and MB SLs. That's because you have to be successful enough to be able to afford them and unless you're an NFL or NBA player or rock star/movie star, usually that means you're older.

    I think the Corvette needs to stay at the price level it is at. Half of the attraction to cars like that are that not everyone can buy one.

    What you are asking is for GM to build an mid level sports car, like the Boxter is for Porsche. A nice upscale $30-35,000 car. Like what the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky were except upgraded to the next level.

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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    Well if you don't own a SKY/SOLSTICE you have no idea how much you can put in the trunk with the top down. Sheets of plywood no the car is not a pickup nor does it pretend to be. Wife and I have gone on a two week trip and had all the room we needed.


    KAPPA style car should be built by GM.
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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    I believe GM would make Corvette an actual "brand" before they'd make a Pontiac or other version.
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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    Quote Originally Posted by Orbit Orange View Post
    After reading up on a Corvette forum about the age of new Vette buyers in the mid 50's and Corvette being an "old mans car", I got to thinking.....

    Corvette sales are down (barely over 10K a year for the last 2 or 3 years), new Corvette owner ages are up. GM would like to see both of those trends reverse. Now with the C7 on the horizon I can see sales going up but not the ages going down, So to kill two birds with one stone how about offering a Corvette based two-seater Pontiac (Phoenix??? or whatever its name) with a Pontiac styled body out of light/strong steel (I'd say aluminum buts it would be too pricey I think) with the upcoming Gen V 5.3 V8 out of the upcoming trucks in place of Corvettes Gen V 6.2 V8, cheaper interior (maybe nice cloth or leatherette or a combo of both), less content than the upcoming Corvette as well for around $42,000 delivered as a base model manual? It could be optioned up with other stuff to around $50K where the Corvette starts out now.

    Would this step on Corvettes toes?

    Would this help amortize the cost of the Corvette program and draw in more sales?

    Would this get a younger buyer into a Corvette like two-seater? (Maybe steal some 370 Z type buyers???) (Maybe lure back some Trans-Am owners?)

    Thoughts you might have?

    I figure the C7 will start at or above 50K for a base model 1LT Vette that weighs 3350 pounds maybe. That will probably get you the Gen V 6.2 V8 with 450 to 475 HP and a lot of nicer interior stuff than the current C6. A 350 to 375 HP Gen V 5.3 V8 in this two-seat Pontiac with a steel body may weigh in at 3500 pounds. It would still have a good weight to power ratio and be more price attractive to some that can't swing a new Corvette but don't really want a Camaro.

    I'm just spitballing all this here. Feel free to discuss. I'd love to have some real discussion on this and debate the pros and cons so please bring them up.
    Ummmm, no. On my 3rd Vette, and I'm not over 50. That's all about price point and the economy, if younger people had the money, they'd buy Vettes. GM will NEVER build direct competition for the Vette. No, the Caddy XLR wouldn't be either.

    Quote Originally Posted by majicbz07 View Post
    They alreayd have the Camaro, but I think Chevy needs a second gen Solstce/Sky. I think the chassis was pretty solid, but if they could work out some of the issues such as having an actual trunk and maybe some better interior ergornomics (Center Tunnel too big), they already have lots of great powertrains and are doing a lot better in interior designs. So it would be pretty easy for them to put together an updated Sky/ Solstice for Chevy.
    Chevy does not need another sporty car, maybe Buick or even Cadillac?

    Quote Originally Posted by Houtex View Post
    As far as Corvette owners go, yes Corvettes are an old man's car, so are Ferrari's and Porsche 911s and MB SLs. That's because you have to be successful enough to be able to afford them and unless you're an NFL or NBA player or rock star/movie star, usually that means you're older.

    I think the Corvette needs to stay at the price level it is at. Half of the attraction to cars like that are that not everyone can buy one.

    What you are asking is for GM to build an mid level sports car, like the Boxter is for Porsche. A nice upscale $30-35,000 car. Like what the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky were except upgraded to the next level.
    Again, Corvettes are not an old mans car, but they're not cheap....and shouldn't be. Definitely not an age thing.

    As for Solstice/Sky, well, although it'd be a nice Buick or Caddy...the plant and equipment are gone. Those Fisker Karma's coming out of that plant are cool, but SUPER expensive.
    The Trans Am kit is coming!!!!! But at what upcharge....hmmmm, doesn't matter to me! I WANT ONE!!!!

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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    "As for Solstice/Sky, well, although it'd be a nice Buick or Caddy...the plant and equipment are gone. Those Fisker Karma's coming out of that plant are cool, but SUPER expensive."

    Wow no chit, the plant is gone. I bet your the only person in the world that knew that ......
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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    First off, the Pontiac brand is dead and I can't imagine the business case for bringing it back, particularly for the small number of Pontiac die-hards who might buy a Pontiac sports car, but wouldn't buy the same vehicle if it was a Chevy.

    That said, a case might be made for a cheaper sports car, though that car would likely be a Chevy and would need to tap into a less expensive parts bin to be priced low enough to not hurt Corvette or Camaro sales. Kappa would have worked, but it too is dead and buried and there really isn't any other front engine, RWD chassis to draw off of.

    The only option I cam think of is to take the Fiero approach and develop an inexpensive mid-engined space frame that can us GM's extensive FWD parts bin to keep development costs down. You could have a small two seater or 2+2 with a higher pressure 1.4T (say 170 hp) as the base engine and the 270 hp 2.0T as an option, with an AWD, 425 hp twin turbo 3 litre V6 turbo as a limited, 'ZM1' supercar.

    If you could get the base model in at just under 20k, the 2T in the mid-high 20s and the ZM1 at around 40k you'd have a nice addition to the Camaro and Corvette.

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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    Quote Originally Posted by RjION View Post
    "As for Solstice/Sky, well, although it'd be a nice Buick or Caddy...the plant and equipment are gone. Those Fisker Karma's coming out of that plant are cool, but SUPER expensive."

    Wow no chit, the plant is gone. I bet your the only person in the world that knew that ......
    Wow, don't take it personally. Never said I didn't like the idea of the kappa coming back as they were cool little cars, but if they just sold off all that stuff so it just doesn't make sense unless it's a totally diffrent car. (like they did with the Camaro or the Regal)

    Just like I'm the only person under 42 who owns a Vette. (Bought my first one at 26)

    Oh yeah, and I'll bet the economy has something to do with car sales...wonder why no one thought of that...lol
    The Trans Am kit is coming!!!!! But at what upcharge....hmmmm, doesn't matter to me! I WANT ONE!!!!

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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    First off, the Pontiac brand is dead and I can't imagine the business case for bringing it back, particularly for the small number of Pontiac die-hards who might buy a Pontiac sports car, but wouldn't buy the same vehicle if it was a Chevy.

    That said, a case might be made for a cheaper sports car, though that car would likely be a Chevy and would need to tap into a less expensive parts bin to be priced low enough to not hurt Corvette or Camaro sales. Kappa would have worked, but it too is dead and buried and there really isn't any other front engine, RWD chassis to draw off of.

    The only option I cam think of is to take the Fiero approach and develop an inexpensive mid-engined space frame that can us GM's extensive FWD parts bin to keep development costs down. You could have a small two seater or 2+2 with a higher pressure 1.4T (say 170 hp) as the base engine and the 270 hp 2.0T as an option, with an AWD, 425 hp twin turbo 3 litre V6 turbo as a limited, 'ZM1' supercar.

    If you could get the base model in at just under 20k, the 2T in the mid-high 20s and the ZM1 at around 40k you'd have a nice addition to the Camaro and Corvette.
    I like the Fiero approach as well...

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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    First off, the Pontiac brand is dead and I can't imagine the business case for bringing it back, particularly for the small number of Pontiac die-hards who might buy a Pontiac sports car, but wouldn't buy the same vehicle if it was a Chevy.

    That said, a case might be made for a cheaper sports car, though that car would likely be a Chevy and would need to tap into a less expensive parts bin to be priced low enough to not hurt Corvette or Camaro sales. Kappa would have worked, but it too is dead and buried and there really isn't any other front engine, RWD chassis to draw off of.

    The only option I cam think of is to take the Fiero approach and develop an inexpensive mid-engined space frame that can us GM's extensive FWD parts bin to keep development costs down. You could have a small two seater or 2+2 with a higher pressure 1.4T (say 170 hp) as the base engine and the 270 hp 2.0T as an option, with an AWD, 425 hp twin turbo 3 litre V6 turbo as a limited, 'ZM1' supercar.

    If you could get the base model in at just under 20k, the 2T in the mid-high 20s and the ZM1 at around 40k you'd have a nice addition to the Camaro and Corvette.
    Interesting concept. It would cost money to produce this new platform even with what you suggest though. It does still play the role of what I'm trying to introduce. A baby Vette, something that the younger and less financially well off enthusiast could get into as a stepping stone for possible Corvette purchasing someday. I guess we will see what happens. GM says it wants to try new things, we'll see if they do. And I'd be interested in a 2 seat 425 HP TTV6 in a 3000 to 3100 pound vehicle.

    ust like I'm the only person under 42 who owns a Vette. (Bought my first one at 26)

    Oh yeah, and I'll bet the economy has something to do with car sales...wonder why no one thought of that...lol
    That's cool, glad you did. I'm curious though. Was the first purchase new or used? Reason I ask is a used purchase really doesn't help GM. What I'm shooting for here is to get GM more NEW car purchases. And your right about the economy, it does suck. But what if it continues to suck for the next decade? Does GM stay mired in the status quo or bring something out along these lines that is more affordable for a NEW car purchase for the 2 seater fan? Its my whole point of this thread, trying to get fans and GM thinking "outside the box".
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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    Quote Originally Posted by Orbit Orange View Post
    Interesting concept. It would cost money to produce this new platform even with what you suggest though. It does still play the role of what I'm trying to introduce. A baby Vette, something that the younger and less financially well off enthusiast could get into as a stepping stone for possible Corvette purchasing someday. I guess we will see what happens. GM says it wants to try new things, we'll see if they do. And I'd be interested in a 2 seat 425 HP TTV6 in a 3000 to 3100 pound vehicle.
    Absolutely, there would be a cost. But, my recollection of the Fiero was that the cost was somewhat contained by using a lot of existing parts: the Chevette front suspension, and the X-car drivetrain and front suspension transplanted to the rear. Not having to engineer those parts from scratch allowed GM to offer a great looking, inexpensive two seater and turn a profit (at least at first). Toyota took the same approach with the MR2.

    That's why I imagined using powertrains that either already exist (2T) or are rumoured (higher boost 1.4T for a sportier Sonic; V6 turbo for a number of GM cars).

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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    First off, the Pontiac brand is dead and I can't imagine the business case for bringing it back, particularly for the small number of Pontiac die-hards who might buy a Pontiac sports car, but wouldn't buy the same vehicle if it was a Chevy.

    That said, a case might be made for a cheaper sports car, though that car would likely be a Chevy and would need to tap into a less expensive parts bin to be priced low enough to not hurt Corvette or Camaro sales. Kappa would have worked, but it too is dead and buried and there really isn't any other front engine, RWD chassis to draw off of.

    The only option I cam think of is to take the Fiero approach and develop an inexpensive mid-engined space frame that can us GM's extensive FWD parts bin to keep development costs down. You could have a small two seater or 2+2 with a higher pressure 1.4T (say 170 hp) as the base engine and the 270 hp 2.0T as an option, with an AWD, 425 hp twin turbo 3 litre V6 turbo as a limited, 'ZM1' supercar.

    If you could get the base model in at just under 20k, the 2T in the mid-high 20s and the ZM1 at around 40k you'd have a nice addition to the Camaro and Corvette.
    Are you suggesting a mid-engined car about the size of a Fiero that would be FWD?? If so, that is an insanely terrible idea.
    To build a mid-engined car right, it must be (traditionally)RWD or R-AWD or don't do it at all!!

    The car market is over saturated w/FWD(F-AWD) vehicles.


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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSabre View Post
    Are you suggesting a mid-engined car about the size of a Fiero that would be FWD?? If so, that is an insanely terrible idea.
    To build a mid-engined car right, it must be (traditionally)RWD or R-AWD or don't do it at all!!

    The car market is over saturated w/FWD(F-AWD) vehicles.


    !!!!!!
    No. I am suggesting that, like the Fiero, existing FWD suspension and powertrains be repositioned midships and used to power the rear wheels. That's essentially what GM, Toyota, and Fiat did to create the Fiero, MR2 and X/19. The beauty of this approach is that much of the engineering cost for the powertrain/suspension is shared with high volume FWD sedans, amortizing the cost over large volumes. Yet, the result is a sports car with RWD, and the bulk of its mass concentrated between the axles for good handling and response.

    The biggest disadvantage is packaging: none of these cars had lots of cargo room and that limits the market a bit. But the best of these (likely the MR2) were lauded for handling well beyond their price class ... perfect for Chevy who has two other sporting cars (Camaro and Corvette) that also compete favourably with more expensive cars.

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    Re: Out there idea for a new Pontiac model

    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    No. I am suggesting that, like the Fiero, existing FWD suspension and powertrains be repositioned midships and used to power the rear wheels. That's essentially what GM, Toyota, and Fiat did to create the Fiero, MR2 and X/19. The beauty of this approach is that much of the engineering cost for the powertrain/suspension is shared with high volume FWD sedans, amortizing the cost over large volumes. Yet, the result is a sports car with RWD, and the bulk of its mass concentrated between the axles for good handling and response.

    The biggest disadvantage is packaging: none of these cars had lots of cargo room and that limits the market a bit. But the best of these (likely the MR2) were lauded for handling well beyond their price class ... perfect for Chevy who has two other sporting cars (Camaro and Corvette) that also compete favorably with more expensive cars.
    Ok, though IMO, Chevy should no longer have any sports cars or pick up trucks & be strictly a family oriented brand(sedans/hatchbacks/wagons, a small & medium sized CUVs) Corvette would be spun unto own(still owned by GM) Camaro would die. Pontiac would be resurrected for sport/performance cars & GMC would be strictly Pick ups, medium to large SUVs & true off-road Jeep contenders...such as the would be Hx becoming a GMC model.

    Your idea would & could bring back the Fiero!


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