Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

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Thread: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

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    Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    This is from Polk.

    http://blog.polk.com/blog/blog-posts...you-going-next

    Basically half of 2010 sales of previous Pontiac owners have headed outside GM. I think I remember a while back some GM exec boasted that they would retain 80% or something like that.

    My problem with these numbers is that they report 57,000 and some odd purchases for 2010. Well Pontiac sales numbers in previous years were around 150 to 200K. So what happened to those other 100 to 150 thousand yearly Pontiac purchasers? Was that fleet? Were the fleet numbers included in this survey? I'm curious as to what these numbers will do in 2011 and 2012. I am going to guess go down. Have a look at the numbers, it is an interesting read.
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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Interesting discussion piece but the title reference is misleading and incorrect.

    This:

    Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Is significantly different than this:

    Pontiac Owners... Where are you going next?

    Historically through 2008, 60% of Pontiac owners have remained loyal to General Motors. In 2010, the loyalty rate fell to 47%, which represents a 13 percentage point decrease in overall General Motors loyalty
    This tells me that the retention rate has been surprisingly high, especially when 40% of buyers have traditionally looked elsewhere for the next vehicle when the brand was still available.

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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    GM has retained more than I expected. And this retention rate needs to be looked at skeptically. Why? Because throughout the last few years Pontiac was in EXCESS of 60% fleet sales annually. So really, we're not talking a huge amount of retail (read: real customers) here.

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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Interesting discussion piece but the title reference is misleading and incorrect.
    That is my perspective and guess what 47% of former Pontiac owners did so how is that incorrect?

    I'll bring back an older thread from last June which had a GM executive saying he expected greater than 70% retention if you'd like. On top of that how do you explain the 100 to 150 thousand more sales that Pontiac was historically making? Annual sales would not have dropped from 150K to 50K in a year even in Pontiac's dire state they were in. Can I assume that those 100 plus thousand sales would have been fleet. That would mean Pontiac was about 25 to 30% retail and 70 to 75% fleet if that was the case. Something isn't adding up here.

    With all that said I'm surprised it is at 53% of 57K sales. I would venture to guess that number drops in the next 2 sales years. Pontiac owners weren't going out and buying new Pontiacs year after year. After 3 or 4 years I think we will see a good indication of retention. If GM wants to retain me they will have to bring out something I want at a price that fits as well. If not I'll go elsewhere. Freebie oil change offers aren't enough for this "free agent".

    Because throughout the last few years Pontiac was in EXCESS of 60% fleet sales annually.
    Nick could you find a link to that information. That number gets tossed around frequently but I have yet to see it documented. I know you have connections and can trust your references, but I go by "trust but verify". Thanks.
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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    I would not be surprised if the "performance" Pontiac owners(Firebird, Solstice, GTO) shopped elsewhere, while the mainstream Pontiac owners (G6, Grand Am, Grand Prix, Bonneville) actually would give other GM products a look. If you aren't turned on by the Camaro and cannot afford a Corvette or CTS-V, there's nothing else in GM's cupboard for performance shoppers.

    I'm sure the General has peppered current Pontiac owners and lessees with info regarding the Malibu, Cruze, Regal, and LaCrosse... Not to mention the crossovers which are all the rage nowadays and are attracting many former sedan owners/buyers. (I'm a Saturn owner and I've seen a steady stream of mailings from GM) Mailings that tell current owners that they could save an additional $1,000 go a long way.

    Add to that the fact that many Pontiac customers cross shopped the other GM brands while shopping for their current cars and all of the Pontiac stores shared a showroom with at least Buick and/or GMC, it makes retention of those customers a little easier.

    The fact that GM's mainstream vehicles themselves are far better now than at the time Oldsmobile was discontinued could help the General's quest to retain Pontiac customers in much higher numbers than were retained from that other ill-fated and beloved Division...

    I do believe, however, that GM will have a much harder time retaining Saturn customers. Saturn customers traditionally did not cross shop the other GM brands. Honda was their number one cross shopped competitor. Factor in that even the mainstream Saturn owners, not just the "performance" shoppers like at Pontiac, felt a deep connection to the brand and in turn felt betrayed by the parent company when their beloved Division was killed... They will look elsewhere. Add to that the fact that 98% of those Saturn stores were "stand alones" sharing no showroom space with another GM Division... They will get no dealer incentives to return, like many Pontiac owners will receive from the remaining Buick/GMC dealerships where they bought their cars. (Those ridiculous free oil changes and warranty service notices for "authorized" GM dealerships will not help them. In my area, one has to pass numerous closer GM dealerships to take your Saturn to the authorized store. Some folks in my area have to travel 40+ miles to the authorized store, when there's a Chevrolet or Buick shop right up the street)

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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Quixote88 View Post
    I do believe, however, that GM will have a much harder time retaining Saturn customers. Saturn customers traditionally did not cross shop the other GM brands. Honda was their number one cross shopped competitor. Factor in that even the mainstream Saturn owners, not just the "performance" shoppers like at Pontiac, felt a deep connection to the brand and in turn felt betrayed by the parent company when their beloved Division was killed... They will look elsewhere. Add to that the fact that 98% of those Saturn stores were "stand alones" sharing no showroom space with another GM Division... They will get no dealer incentives to return, like many Pontiac owners will receive from the remaining Buick/GMC dealerships where they bought their cars. (Those ridiculous free oil changes and warranty service notices for "authorized" GM dealerships will not help them. In my area, one has to pass numerous closer GM dealerships to take your Saturn to the authorized store. Some folks in my area have to travel 40+ miles to the authorized store, when there's a Chevrolet or Buick shop right up the street)
    Most Saturn dealers were connected to a GM dealership though in a seperate building. Where I bought my Saturn at is also a Buick GMC dealer. Now that Saturn is gone, they have moved the Buick GMC dealer into the building (which I'm surprised they didn't renovate the building first, since it looks like a Saturn dealership!!!)

    I have received several mailers from GM, probably 2-3 this week alone, regarding service and product info on their wehicles. I haven't tried to take my Saturn to another dealer, so I can't say if other dealers are or aren't participating in servicing the Saturn cars.

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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    I would not be surprised if the "performance" Pontiac owners(Firebird, Solstice, GTO) shopped elsewhere, while the mainstream Pontiac owners (G6, Grand Am, Grand Prix, Bonneville) actually would give other GM products a look. If you aren't turned on by the Camaro and cannot afford a Corvette or CTS-V, there's nothing else in GM's cupboard for performance shoppers.
    Very perceptive. Of course there are/were more of those mainstream vs. performance buyers out there. As one of those performance buyers, I am searching and as you say unless you are turned on by the Camaro, there is nothing. (New Vettes are too pricey for me) That is what is so disappointing.

    My only bittersweet result of this is seeing how LOW ex-Pontiac buyers are buying Buicks. GM has been pushing the Regal hard on us performance Pontiac fans and we seem to be saying no thank you. I don't want a damn Buick GM!!! A new RWD V8 Grand National coupe would be it. I don't want a FWD four banger GM.
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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Orbit Orange View Post

    My only bittersweet result of this is seeing how LOW ex-Pontiac buyers are buying Buicks. GM has been pushing the Regal hard on us performance Pontiac fans and we seem to be saying no thank you. I don't want a damn Buick GM!!! A new RWD V8 Grand National coupe would be it. I don't want a FWD four banger GM.
    Regal should not have a problem pulling former G6 owners though. The Regal is 100x the car the G6 was and the Turbo is much more fun than the G6 was with the OHV V6.

    The only issue will be that GM is not giving Regal's away like they did with basically every Pontiac model. I think a lot of Pontiac owners will defer to Hyundai/Kia because they bought their Pontiac due to $10,000 off the MSRP or whatever. People looking for cheap.

    Dare I say it, but I think Buick will ultimately end up with a lower buyer age than Pontiac ever had in recent history. Gen Y is showing an increasingly high interest in Buick. It's just up to marketing to capitalize on that.

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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    They didn't learn from dropping Olds and will juggle the figures however they want to justify dropping Pontiac and Saturn. My brother oh so wanted to buy another Grand Prix like his '98 GTP but after the very bland redesign he compared the "new" GP to nothing more than a Bonneville in looks. He waited years for something to catch his eye but alas nothing ever came.

    Main reasons he didn't buy another Pontiac was no product and local Pontiac only dealerships had very poor customer interaction, sales and service. In the end that dealer closed before Pontiac went under anyway.

    That G6 had no character compared to his GP GTP.
    Same with the pre-2000 Bonnevilles, they had an aggressive character look that no other C&H body GM product could match. Then the redesign took that away. Come to think of it the HUD display was common on the '90s GP and what other models have it now?

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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by nsap View Post
    The only issue will be that GM is not giving Regal's away like they did with basically every Pontiac model.
    That wasn't the case back in '97 when my brother tried to order his GTP.
    Minimal discounts, very few in inventory. Waited months for his order and finally gave up and found something on a lot. Again the G5,G6 were so bland compared to the out going Grand Am and Grand Prix they replaced. For the most part GM has not been able to sell a bland looking competent car like the imports can.

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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by nsap View Post
    Regal should not have a problem pulling former G6 owners though. The Regal is 100x the car the G6 was and the Turbo is much more fun than the G6 was with the OHV V6.

    The only issue will be that GM is not giving Regal's away like they did with basically every Pontiac model. I think a lot of Pontiac owners will defer to Hyundai/Kia because they bought their Pontiac due to $10,000 off the MSRP or whatever. People looking for cheap.
    The thing about that is the Regal reaches much higher than the G6 did in the first place. The majority of G6 sales were base/GT models (and not likely with leather seats), that probably stickered in the low/mid $20k range before discounts. The Turbo may be more fun than the OHV V6, but the OHV V6s were also volume engines for a lot of models while a Regal Turbo is $29k.

    I think an RS package for the Malibu would do at least as much. Were they to do it for the current one they could dip into the Epsilon I parts bin (use the amber interior lighting from the Aura, for example) to throw one together but I imagine we'll just see one in the next-gen if they do one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowboy View Post
    Come to think of it the HUD display was common on the '90s GP and what other models have it now?
    I know the Acadia, LaCrosse, and Camaro do, not sure what else.
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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by cdp326 View Post
    The thing about that is the Regal reaches much higher than the G6 did in the first place. The majority of G6 sales were base/GT models (and not likely with leather seats), that probably stickered in the low/mid $20k range before discounts. The Turbo may be more fun than the OHV V6, but the OHV V6s were also volume engines for a lot of models while a Regal Turbo is $29k.

    I think an RS package for the Malibu would do at least as much. Were they to do it for the current one they could dip into the Epsilon I parts bin (use the amber interior lighting from the Aura, for example) to throw one together but I imagine we'll just see one in the next-gen if they do one.


    I know the Acadia, LaCrosse, and Camaro do, not sure what else.
    I agree on the pricing front, but that is also where attractive lease deals come in on the Buick's. $280/month for a Regal lease is a great deal and probably less than that 60 month loan they had on their G6 GT.

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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Regal should not have a problem pulling former G6 owners though. The Regal is 100x the car the G6 was and the Turbo is much more fun than the G6 was with the OHV V6.
    Some, but as cdp326 said, transaction rates on the G6 will be lower than that of the Regal. G6 buyers popping 22K for a G6 aren't going to go for a 29K Regal. They'll go Kia/Hyundai or jump to a Cruze. Case it point, just TODAY as I'm wandering around our local Chevy/Buick dealer a 60 something year old woman in a base model G6 is checking out the 3 new Cruzes on the lot. She ignores the 3 Regals. Regals all around 29K, Cruzes around 18 to 20K. cdp326 is dead on this Regal will lose many G6 potential sales at it's price level.

    Dare I say it, but I think Buick will ultimately end up with a lower buyer age than Pontiac ever had in recent history. Gen Y is showing an increasingly high interest in Buick. It's just up to marketing to capitalize on that.
    I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Buick needs a lot more than the Regal to bring the ages down to Pontiac 2000-2009 levels.

    Nick, have you found that fleet data for Pontiac yet? I'm curious about the claimed 60% fleet number you tossed out. If you can find it and link it, thank you.

    That wasn't the case back in '97 when my brother tried to order his GTP.
    Minimal discounts, very few in inventory. Waited months for his order and finally gave up and found something on a lot. Again the G5,G6 were so bland compared to the out going Grand Am and Grand Prix they replaced. For the most part GM has not been able to sell a bland looking competent car like the imports can.
    Same for me, I ordered my '99 GTP and waited months but did finally get it in Spring of '99. Not many on the lots. So many bland G6's on the lots during the last half of the 2000's that they were practically giving them away. GM starved Pontiac of good vehicles.
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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Orbit Orange View Post
    Some, but as cdp326 said, transaction rates on the G6 will be lower than that of the Regal. G6 buyers popping 22K for a G6 aren't going to go for a 29K Regal. They'll go Kia/Hyundai or jump to a Cruze. Case it point, just TODAY as I'm wandering around our local Chevy/Buick dealer a 60 something year old woman in a base model G6 is checking out the 3 new Cruzes on the lot. She ignores the 3 Regals. Regals all around 29K, Cruzes around 18 to 20K. cdp326 is dead on this Regal will lose many G6 potential sales at it's price level.
    And that isn't a bad thing. The last thing Buick needs is to entirely emulate Pontiac's cheapness. Buick needs to command that "pay to play" attitude that premium brands have.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orbit Orange
    I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Buick needs a lot more than the Regal to bring the ages down to Pontiac 2000-2009 levels.

    Nick, have you found that fleet data for Pontiac yet? I'm curious about the claimed 60% fleet number you tossed out. If you can find it and link it, thank you.
    I agree, they do. But they are getting more vehicles that will. Regal GS, Verano, Verano Turbo, potential coupe/hatch versions....that is going to do it.

    I have the benefit of driving my press vehicles on a college campus almost daily. I have been downright stunned at the reactions and comments I have gotten in the LaCrosse. Gen Y is warming up to Buick much faster than even I thought.

    The >60% fleet rating came from my sources back during the bankruptcy. Considering most of my sources were personally not in favor of killing the brand, I would suffice to say the number was accurate. Another issue with Pontiac was that almost 20% of its sales in 2007 and 2008 were GMS deals (employee discount). It's no wonder the brand was not profitable.

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    Re: Orphaned Pontiac owners head elsewhere in 2010

    I agree that the typical G6 owner won't purchase a much higher priced Regal as the increase is just too considerable. I am the perfect example. My cheap lease, yet well optioned G6 V6 gets returned next month and I'm very uncertain as to what I will replace it with. GM mailings and my dealer have been pushing the Regal and the new turbo version down my throat for months. After two turbo test drives I'm left completely cold by the $30K base price for a Regal with the SAME 220HP my 08 G6 has that MSRP'ed at $24k and offered both subsidized lease rates coupled with solid incentives at time of purchase. The Regal is a very nice car overall but simply too expensive and underpowered for what it offers to typical Pontiac G6 owners.
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