Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

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Thread: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

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    Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Tesla owns over half of the zero-emissions market in America, but that only accounts for two percent of the entire US car market.

    The main reasons consumers don't switch to battery-electric vehicles are due to long recharging time, range anxiety, and cost.
    Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles can refuel in 5 minutes and give consumers a longer range. If infrastructure continues to grow and fuel-cell vehicles scale, Tesla could have a new host of competitors in the zero-emission space.

    The following is a transcript of the video.

    Narrator: If you ask anyone what the future of cars looks like, they'll probably tell you it's electric and that Tesla is at the forefront of the movement. But what if I told you that there's another option that could be just as good or even better than battery-electric vehicles? What if you could power cars with the most abundant resource in the universe with water as the only byproduct? And they're more likely to disrupt the auto industry than battery-powered cars, like Teslas. Hydrogen fuel cells have been a technology of great promise as well as great skepticism. Elon Musk himself often mocks hydrogen fuel cell technology, going so far as to call them "fool cells" and "mind-bogglingly stupid." But major automakers still see promise.

    First, let's define the terms. Battery electric vehicles, or BEVs, are the electric vehicles that most of us are familiar with today, like Teslas. They use a battery to store electricity and power the electric motor.
    A hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle, or FCEV, like Toyota's Mirai, combines hydrogen with oxygen to produce electricity, which then powers the electric motor that drives the car. Now, when it comes to why people don't buy battery-electric vehicles like Teslas, there are three main reasons: They take too long to recharge, they have a limited range before they need to be recharged, and they cost a lot more than your comparable gas-powered car. So, how do hydrogen cars stack up in these areas?

    When it comes to recharging, hydrogen cars have battery-electrics beat. At a supercharging station, a Tesla can charge anywhere from 30% to 50% in 15 minutes, but you'll be at the charging station for over an hour for a full charge. Fuel-cell vehicles don't require charging at all. The hydrogen tank is refilled at a hydrogen station in less than five minutes, just like your typical gas station today. That's because FCEVs don't store electricity like a battery; they create it on demand to power the motor. When it comes to range, hydrogen-powered cars seem to come out on top again. Between the three fuel-cell vehicles on the road today, they have a range of 312, 360, and 380 miles. Most electric vehicles have a range under 250 miles. While some Tesla models offer a range of more than 300 miles, they often cost more than the average car buyer can afford.

    Range and refueling times are so important that 78% of automotive executives believe fuel-cell vehicles will be the breakthrough for electric mobility. But that's not to say fuel-cell vehicles don't have challenges of their own. FCEVs need more competitive pricing. The suggested retail price for the fuel-cell vehicles available today is around $60,000, which is about $20,000 more than an entry-level BEV. That's because production size of these vehicles is incredibly low. With only a few thousand or few hundred being made every year, it's nearly impossible for prices to be competitive. But that could soon be changing. Automakers are looking to increase the production of their FCEVs. Toyota, in particular, has increased its production capabilities tenfold to eventually bring down the cost of its Mirai. The real challenge for hydrogen fuel cells is the lack of infrastructure. In the US, the majority of hydrogen stations are in California, with just over 40 available to fuel-cell owners. For FCEVs to become the breakthrough that automotive executives believe in, a vast network for hydrogen stations is vital. And automakers are slowly working to make it happen.

    Jackie Birdsall: We do get to work together with the other automakers, as well as with, you know, here in California, the state of California and the industrial gas suppliers, or whomever the energy provider is, to be able to site hydrogen stations where it makes the most sense for all of the automakers' vehicles. And so that's to try to make sure that any investment that we make is best leveraged by all of the consumers from all of the automakers that currently offer fuel-cell vehicles.

    Narrator: If and when fuel-cell vehicles scale, Tesla will have a tough challenge on their hands. They'll have to increase range while simultaneously decreasing recharging time and price.

    But Teslas, and any battery-electric vehicles, are limited because of the law of diminishing returns. Increasing the range requires a larger battery. A larger battery will add more weight to the car. After a certain point, the added weight no longer yields additional range.
    With FCEVs, it's just a numbers game. More hydrogen stations equal more cars, and more cars equal more affordable fuel-cell vehicles.

    Tesla has a lock on the zero-emissions market in America, controlling a whopping 60% of the EV market. But that's still only 2% of the entire US car market. And those numbers decrease when we talk about the global car market. The only thing really holding FCEVs back is infrastructure, and as hydrogen stations become more abundant, Tesla could lose the majority of the zero-emissions market. For a technology that's "mind-bogglingly stupid," it has serious potential to become a real competition for the very same customers that Tesla's aiming for. So, Elon might want to take notice.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/hydr...threat-2019-12
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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    The following is a transcript of the video.

    First, let's define the terms.
    Average people think - to the extent that this is ever considered or discussed - that you make hydrogen by pumping electricity through water, decomposing the water into hydrogen and oxygen gas via electrolysis. Because kids do this at school.

    This is not how you make hydrogen in industry. Ninety-something per cent of the worldís hydrogen is made from methane. The stuff you burn in the stove at home, if youíve got natural gas.

    Methane is the simplest hydrocarbon. One carbon atom. Four hydrogens. The cheapest way to make hydrogen gas is to strip off the four hydrogens from the carbon, make two molecules of hydrogen gas, and throw the carbon away as CO2.

    Itís a filthy, inefficient process.

    If youíd like to make hydrogen this way, hereís how you do it: You get natural gas and you mix it with steam. It needs to be quite hot. About 1000 degrees C will do. Thatís about 1800 Farenheit (for you hydrogen nuts in Retardistan).

    Just pause for a sec here. Thatís effing hot. Itís above the melting point of lead, or brass, or aluminium, or silver, or even plutonium (if you happen to have some lying around - most people donít).

    You need a massive amount of energy to sustain this reaction, because itís endothermic. It sucks heat like a *******. You burn copious coal or natural gas to get the job done. #filthy.

    If you donít blow yourself up, you get a lethal cocktail of carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas.

    Then you need to pump this lethal cocktail through another quite hot process at about 300 degrees C to convert the carbon monoxide to plain old climate destroying CO2, which you can pump out some chimney with complete impunity.

    Just to get the sheer environmental filth of this process in perspective: For every kilo of hydrogen gas you make, you pump 5.5 kilos of CO2 into the atmosphere.

    In short, you need a ****load of energy to make a little bit of hydrogen and a lot of CO2. And because of the second law of thermodynamics, you get less energy in the hydrogen you make, compared with the methane you started with.

    If youíve got methane, and all you want is energy, you would be better off just burning the methane in an engine.
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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    cliffs

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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Hydrogen is definitely a threat to Tesla's semi truck.
    Elsewhere, it's a non-factor.
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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Tesla can now acquire GM , they certainly have the market capitalization to do it. They should.

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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Average people think - to the extent that this is ever considered or discussed - that you make hydrogen by pumping electricity through water, decomposing the water into hydrogen and oxygen gas via electrolysis. Because kids do this at school.

    This is not how you make hydrogen in industry. Ninety-something per cent of the worldís hydrogen is made from methane. The stuff you burn in the stove at home, if youíve got natural gas.

    Methane is the simplest hydrocarbon. One carbon atom. Four hydrogens. The cheapest way to make hydrogen gas is to strip off the four hydrogens from the carbon, make two molecules of hydrogen gas, and throw the carbon away as CO2.

    Itís a filthy, inefficient process.

    If youíd like to make hydrogen this way, hereís how you do it: You get natural gas and you mix it with steam. It needs to be quite hot. About 1000 degrees C will do. Thatís about 1800 Farenheit (for you hydrogen nuts in Retardistan).

    Just pause for a sec here. Thatís effing hot. Itís above the melting point of lead, or brass, or aluminium, or silver, or even plutonium (if you happen to have some lying around - most people donít).

    You need a massive amount of energy to sustain this reaction, because itís endothermic. It sucks heat like a *******. You burn copious coal or natural gas to get the job done. #filthy.

    If you donít blow yourself up, you get a lethal cocktail of carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas.

    Then you need to pump this lethal cocktail through another quite hot process at about 300 degrees C to convert the carbon monoxide to plain old climate destroying CO2, which you can pump out some chimney with complete impunity.

    Just to get the sheer environmental filth of this process in perspective: For every kilo of hydrogen gas you make, you pump 5.5 kilos of CO2 into the atmosphere.

    In short, you need a ****load of energy to make a little bit of hydrogen and a lot of CO2. And because of the second law of thermodynamics, you get less energy in the hydrogen you make, compared with the methane you started with.

    If youíve got methane, and all you want is energy, you would be better off just burning the methane in an engine.
    Oh egads no and heaven forbid, NOT METHANE. That substance all the snowflake greenie-tree huggers want to rid the earth of by exterminating all the cowz on the planet

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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    I guess the discovery by the Army of a new source of hydrogen from aluminum and water is going to change this yet again.

    And while you're at it make sure the new fuel cell vehicles are sold by someone who has a better understanding of customer experience than the boy genius. Just this week talked to another Tesla owner (Model 3) who loves her vehicle but will never do business with Tesla again.

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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Quote Originally Posted by 1958carnut View Post
    Oh egads no and heaven forbid, NOT METHANE. That substance all the snowflake greenie-tree huggers want to rid the earth of by exterminating all the cowz on the planet
    Solution: Hook a cow up to the hydrogen-producing gizmo. Voila!
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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    Tesla can now acquire GM , they certainly have the market capitalization to do it. They should.
    With what? More debt? You must either pay cash to the GM shareholders or give them shares in T. If you were a GM shareholder, would you vote to approve a merger where you got T stock? Cause they do not have the cash.

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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    Tesla can now acquire GM , they certainly have the market capitalization to do it. They should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagon11 View Post
    With what? More debt? You must either pay cash to the GM shareholders or give them shares in T. If you were a GM shareholder, would you vote to approve a merger where you got T stock? Cause they do not have the cash.
    He's either been drinking or doesn't (at all) understand what he is talking about......................
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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    The main reasons consumers don't switch to battery-electric vehicles are due to long recharging time, range anxiety, and cost.
    Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles can refuel in 5 minutes and give consumers a longer range. If infrastructure continues to grow and fuel-cell vehicles scale, Tesla could have a new host of competitors in the zero-emission space.
    The real challenge for hydrogen fuel cells is the lack of infrastructure. In the US, the majority of hydrogen stations are in California, with just over 40 available to fuel-cell owners. For FCEVs to become the breakthrough that automotive executives believe in, a vast network for hydrogen stations is vital. And automakers are slowly working to make it happen.
    Just going back and rereading this and: These two things raise a very important issue. In order for either to get off the ground and replace ICE they have to get said infrastructure to a point where they/it//are/is to a degree like today's gas stations, all over and on ever corner so to speak.

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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    He's either been drinking or doesn't (at all) understand what he is talking about......................
    Yeah....why would a Tech agile company like Tesla want to acquire a company with the turning radius of a rogue river barge?
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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Quote Originally Posted by sdotjeezy View Post
    Yeah....why would a Tech agile company like Tesla want to acquire a company with the turning radius of a rogue river barge?
    Lots of good reasons:

    1. Help with the trip to Mars.
    2. Has good test drivers who just drink a wee bit before getting pulled over by the Kentucky State Police.
    3. Has successfully landed re-usable rocket boosters on seaborne platforms...oh wait, that was someone else.
    4. Bring back Saturn!
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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    Tesla can now acquire GM , they certainly have the market capitalization to do it. They should.
    Or in 3-5 years, My Kid's Piggy Bank could also.

    The question here is "Why would Tesla want GM?

    Hydrogen, or something similar, is "Going to Kill Off EV's Period". As soon as "Big Oil/Governments" learns how to Control Water/Rain rights.

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    Re: Why hydrogen cars will be Tesla's biggest threat

    Quote Originally Posted by nota View Post
    Thank you for posting it so I don't have to....for like the 3275923085233th time.

    Find me an abundant clean source of H2 on this planet and I'll give you my life savings.
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