Hydrogen powered BMW.

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Thread: Hydrogen powered BMW.

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    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC SlySy's Avatar
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    Hydrogen powered BMW.

    http://www.hydrogenforecast.com/LAau...howbmwh2r.html


    Why don't GM use this kind of set up, hydrogen powered internal combustion engine, it generates more power than GM's fuel cells.

    Kind of disappointing, I thought GM was on the forefront in hydrogen vehicle technology.

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    That's because you only get about 22% of the energy out of the hydrogen when you burn it (i.e. go through the carnot cycle) in an internal combustion engine, and the overall tank-to-road efficiency of an ICE vehicle is around 18%. There's also NOX emissions when you burn hydrogen.

    A fuel cell vehicle has a much higher efficiency, approaching 50% for the fuel cell unit itself, and overall energy efficiency of 30-35% for the vehicle. While it still sounds like it sucks, that's almost twice the efficiency - meaning you can either go twice as far or only carry half the fuel to go the same distance.

    When you look at total energy efficiency from electrical power generation to hydrogen production (in the ideal world, hydrogen would be produced by electrolysis - in today's world only 4% comes from electrolysis, 96% comes from stripping hydrogen from methanol and methane), to the extra energy to pressurize (or liquify) hydrogen, tank-to-road efficiency is extremely important. It tells you how much fuel you need to carry for the range you need to go.

    An electric vehicle is very efficient - almost 70% of the energy from the battery gets to the road - problem being the weight and charging time of the storage unit (the battery).

    Looking at it backwards, for every kw-hr needed to propel your vehicle down the road, the electrical generation plant (in the US most likely coal powered) would have to produce:

    11.5 kw-hrs to power an ICE hydrogen car,
    only about 5.8 kw-hrs to power a Fuel Cell Vehicle,
    and only about 1.6 kw-hr to power an electric vehicle.

    The generation of carbon for each (from the coal powered electrical plant, at 86 grams Carbon per kw-hr) would be:

    438 grams/mile for the Hydrogen ICE
    225 grams/mile for the Hydrogen FCV
    61.4 grams/mile for the Electrical vehicle.

    Since the average miles/gallon in the US is around 17 MPG (in 2002, ALL vehicles) you can compare this to:
    524 grams/mile for a 17MPG average gasoline powered vehicle and
    594 grams/mile for a 17MPG average diesel powered vehicle

    If you want to compare to a 30 MPG average vehicle, divide the fossil fuel numbers by 1.75.

    Burning hydrogen in an ICE offers virtually no advantage for energy efficiency or carbon emissions, and also produces NOX during the burning process.

    Hydrogen is just the wrong fuel for use in an ICE.

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlySy
    http://www.hydrogenforecast.com/LAau...howbmwh2r.html


    Why don't GM use this kind of set up, hydrogen powered internal combustion engine, it generates more power than GM's fuel cells.

    Kind of disappointing, I thought GM was on the forefront in hydrogen vehicle technology.

    Maybe you should pay attention to some news. GM is not as bad of as you seem to think they are.





    GM Delivers First Fuel Cell Truck to U.S. Army
    FOR RELEASE: 2005-04-01

    CONTACTS

    GM Delivers First Fuel Cell Truck to U.S. Army

    Military sees day when all its vehicles would be fuel cell-powered


    Honeoye Falls, NY - General Motors Corp. and the U.S. Army today announced they are partnering to introduce the world's first fuel cell-powered truck into U.S. military service.

    The U.S. Army took delivery of the crew cab pickup at the GM research facility outside of Rochester, NY, where the vehicle's two fuel cell power modules were made. Marking the occasion was Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY), who was instrumental in securing the funds in the 2005 Department of Defense appropriations on behalf of GM's experimental truck."

    "The work that GM is doing here in Honeoye Falls represents extraordinary promise for New York State and indeed the entire nation. Securing the funds to make this project possible was a critical step in the right direction. I'm thrilled to have helped and been able to play a role in today's announcement," said Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton.

    The modified Chevrolet Silverado is equipped with two 94 kW fuel cell stacks, capable of generating 188 kW and 317 foot-pounds of torque, or roughly the motor torque generated by GM's 5.3 liter V-8 engine.

    "Fuel cell vehicles are a good match with U.S. Army goals," said Elizabeth A. Lowery, GM's vice president for Environment and Energy. "We are committed to the development of new technologies that will improve fuel consumption and reduce vehicle emissions. Fuel cell systems are both clean and quiet, and therefore, can provide a battlefield advantage.

    "Our partnership with the U.S. Army will familiarize the military with the next-generation of commercially-developed fuel cell technology, will help us drive down costs, create potential for future joint development of fuel cells and promote the development of a hydrogen infrastructure."

    The U.S. Army has the largest fleet of vehicles in the world. Improving fuel economy and reducing the logistics of the fuel supply chain could save millions of dollars. For example, it cost the U.S. Army up to $400 a gallon of gas to ship fuel to Iraq and Afghanistan.

    GM has a history of working with the military on their transportation needs. The automaker produces more than half of the non-tactical military vehicles purchased each year.

    The U.S. Army will evaluate the experimental truck until July 2006 at an Army base in Ft. Belvoir, Va. The vehicle will be used to deliver packages but will not be used in combat. Rigorous testing is planned in different climates and locations around the U.S. to assess performance and give the military first-hand experience with hydrogen and fuel cells.

    Despite weighing 7,500 pounds, the GMT800 accelerates in a similar fashion to a V-8 powered production truck, but produces no tailpipe emissions. Fuel cells chemically convert hydrogen into electricity and water. Three 10,000 psi compressed hydrogen storage tanks, provided by Quantum Technologies, will provide a range of 125 miles, even though the vehicle was not optimized for range.

    General Motors Corporation
    General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM), the world's largest automaker, has been the global industry sales leader since 1931. Founded in 1908, GM today employs about 324,000 people around the world. It has manufacturing operations in 32 countries and its vehicles are sold in 200 countries. In 2004, GM sold nearly 9 million cars and trucks globally, up 4 percent and the second-highest total in the company's history. GM's global headquarters are at the GM Renaissance Center in Detroit. More information on GM can be found at www.gm.com.

    U.S. Army Research, Development and Engineering Command (RDECOM)
    The U.S. Army Research, Development and Engineering Command gets technology out of the laboratories and puts it into the hands of warfighters as quickly as possible. RDECOM manages eight laboratories and research, development and engineering centers, plus the U.S. Army Materiel Systems Analysis Activity, System of Systems Integration, international technology centers, and capability and technology integrated process teams. RDECOM maintains liaisons to the field, hundreds of international agreements, and engineer and scientist exchange programs. RDECOM has more than 17,000 military, civilian and direct contractor personnel, a multi-billion dollar annual budget and is responsible for 75 percent of the Army's science and technology objectives. RDECOM provides direct support of the technical base to Future Combat Systems and Future Force, ensuring the nation has the protection it needs for the 21st century and beyond. More information on the U.S. Army Research, Development and Engineering Command can be found at www.rdecom.army.mil.

    http://media.gm.com/

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    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8 Hudson's Avatar
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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    BMW's been experimenting with hydrogen-fueled internal combustion engines for nearly three decades and now has one in production. GM's been working on fuel cells for more than FOUR decades...and a production-ready one is still a decade away.

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    Thank you SolsticeMan, that is the info I was looking for the advantages and disadvantages.


    327, since you completely missed my question, allow me to clarify myself. (SolsticeMan didn't seem to have a problem understanding my question)
    I read that article you mentioned about the fuel cell Silverado (since I log onto this site everyday just like everybody else), and it made me think of BMW's hydrogen powered internal combustion engine car that did 300km. If an hydrogen ICE car makes more power WHY use fuel cells. Did you catch that this time? WHY use fuel cells when hydrogen ICE (internal combustion engine) make more power? Contact me if you need me to make this any simpler.


    Thanks to SolsticeMan I now know.

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    Slysy,

    The H2R isn't all it's cracked up to be. It may have set several records - but keep in mind:

    285 HP and all it does is 0-100 KPH in 6 seconds. That back calculates to a curb weight of 3800 lbs, give or take. FOR A ONE-SEATER?!?!? That is really heavy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSN article on BMW H2R
    ...The company cautioned, however, that while hydrogen itself doesn't pollute, most hydrogen is still obtained either from fossil fuels such as natural gas or by applying grid electricity to split water. Either way releases hydrocarbons.

    Solar or wind power can be used to split water, but that process is even more expensive than via fossil fuel....
    They're also hiding the shortfalls of the car. They don't want you to know the rest of the car is engine and a humongous fuel tank. They don't want you to see the weight and think about how heavy the thing is. They don't want you to know the range is pitiful. They mention it runs on liquid hydrogen, but they don't tell you that it boils away if you leave the car for three days.

    This car is nothing more than a stunt, with some diversion thrown in. It does nothing to advance the nearly stillborn so-called (and General Motors coined phrase) "Hydrogen Highway".

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    This raises another question I've been pondering. I seen that fuel tank on the BMW, and its full of hydrogen (obviously). So does that mean we will be riding in a hydrogen bomb. Everybody knows how we Americans like to crash into each others cars. Are we going to be seeing mushroom clouds around every other corner. BTW, Thanks man, you have been very helpful. I am an avid GM fan and it pains me to see their current situation, I preach to all my friends "take some stock in your future, buy American". These fuel cells give me some hope, although there is nothing like a gas guzzling muscle car shaking the pavement around you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolsticeMan
    Slysy,

    The H2R isn't all it's cracked up to be. It may have set several records - but keep in mind:

    285 HP and all it does is 0-100 KPH in 6 seconds. That back calculates to a curb weight of 3800 lbs, give or take. FOR A ONE-SEATER?!?!? That is really heavy.



    They're also hiding the shortfalls of the car. They don't want you to know the rest of the car is engine and a humongous fuel tank. They don't want you to see the weight and think about how heavy the thing is. They don't want you to know the range is pitiful. They mention it runs on liquid hydrogen, but they don't tell you that it boils away if you leave the car for three days.

    This car is nothing more than a stunt, with some diversion thrown in. It does nothing to advance the nearly stillborn so-called (and General Motors coined phrase) "Hydrogen Highway".
    Last edited by SlySy; 04-03-2005 at 01:25 AM.

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    SlySy,

    I just thought of something else - when you have an ICE, you need to pay attention to power much more than torque. This is because of the torque curve of an ICE - it means everything for acceleration and gearing.

    When you are powering a car using an electric motor (like Electric Vehicles, and any other class of vehicle that is a series-hybrid primary electric drive, which a Fuel Cell Vehicle is in this class), the torque curve is different. Motor power is proportional to torque and motor speed.

    With an electric motor as a primary drive, you get almost constant torque (unlike a rising torque curve with RPM like an ICE) to the power limitation of the motor, then proportional torque calculated by the speed and power.

    This means that you can have two vehicles, an ICE and an electric drive, and the ICE may have twice the power of the electric but both vehicles have the same 0-60 times.

    Therefore, you can have electric drive motors in a 7500 lb truck, with 250 hp available and 317 ft-lb of torque, and it can feel just like a 325 hp/310ft-lb ICE 4850 lb truck because of the initial constant acceleration (constant motor torque).

    Just an example of where power, in the case electric motors, doesn't tell the whole story. Fuel cells don't provide as much power, but since they are making electricity, they don't NEED to make as much power - because of the torque characteristics of electric motors.

    Diesel engines are another type of engine that has high peak torque vs. peak horsepower - except the difference between RPM's at peak torque and peak horsepower is much smaller.

    Think of an electric motor powered vehicle with peak torque available at, say, 100 RPMs and peak power near redline. (rather than peak torque at 80% of redline and peak power at 95% of redline).
    Last edited by SolsticeMan; 04-03-2005 at 01:45 AM.

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlySy
    This raises another question I've been pondering. I seen that fuel tank on the BMW, and its full of hydrogen (obviously). So does that mean we will be riding in a hydrogen bomb. Everybody knows how we Americans like to crash into each others cars. Are we going to be seeing mushroom clouds around every other corner. BTW, Thanks man, you have been very helpful. I am an avid GM fan and it pains me to see their current situation, I preach to all my friends "take some stock in your future, buy American". These fuel cells give me some hope, although there is nothing like a gas guzzling muscle car shaking the pavement around you.
    Nope - no hindenburg is gonna happen.

    However, a hydrogen tank is a pressure vessel - with stored mechanical energy. 10000 PSI is nothing to sneeze at, and could constitute concern in the event of a significant crash. The danger, however is no different than carrying around a 10000 PSI tank of helium - either one can cause serious damage if the tank is ruptured.

    The added problem with hydrogen is the tank generally can't be made of inexpensive material like steel, because of a thing called "hydrogen embrittlement". The hydrogen atoms sort of "sneak" into the steel, making it brittle over time. To alleviate this, the tanks are composite. AND EXPENSIVE.

    To store liquid hydrogen is also more of a pain, cause you now need serious insulation to keep it cool enough so the hydrogen doesn't gassify, or boil.

    When you hear about safety of storing hydrogen, what you are hearing is the concern of carrying around hi-pressure vessels, and the mechanical danger inherent with such storage. The researchers are not concerned (nor should you be) about the hydrogen "blowing up".

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudson
    BMW's been experimenting with hydrogen-fueled internal combustion engines for nearly three decades and now has one in production. GM's been working on fuel cells for more than FOUR decades...and a production-ready one is still a decade away.
    Isnt GM working on building a hydrogen vehicle that is AFFORDABLE to the public? How much does this BMW thing cost? It looks to me like it does make more power but leaves emissions. GMs version looks like all you have to do is fill it with water and it makes no emissions. Theres no info on this topic as to how this BMW works or did I miss it? Where or how the hell do they get hydrogen ice?

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    umm...mate a hydrogen bomb is a thermonuclear reaction - not something that is going to happen when a couple of boneheads in hydrogen powered 1-series have a prang

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    Re: Hydrogen powered BMW.

    Quote Originally Posted by 327
    Isnt GM working on building a hydrogen vehicle that is AFFORDABLE to the public? How much does this BMW thing cost? It looks to me like it does make more power but leaves emissions. GMs version looks like all you have to do is fill it with water and it makes no emissions. Theres no info on this topic as to how this BMW works or did I miss it? Where or how the hell do they get hydrogen ice?
    327,
    GM's version and BMW's version all attempt to use hydrogen as the fuel. A lot of people get the wrong idea that all hydrogen comes from electrolyzing water, and that you can eventually just put water in the tank, get the hydrogen out of the water and burn it or use it in a fuel cell.

    Nothing is further from the possible. Unless there is some sort of perpetual machine (M.C. Escher car, anyone?).

    Hydrogen is currently mass produced (primarily for the food industry) by stripping it from methane and methanol, which are sourced from natural gas and crude oil. The byproduct is carbon dioxide, which is vented to atmosphere, and it takes a bit of energy to make the steam to strip the hydrogen (called "reformation) from the hydrocarbons. A small portion of the hydrogen is made through electrolysis.

    Both GM and BMW (and all the others that are in need of hydrogen) get it from reformation facilities (like Shell), in pressurized form, or liquid form (extremely cold, refrigerated, and subject to boiling away). It is delivered pretty much the same way as you would get liquid nitrogen, compressed helium, argon, oxygen, acetelyene or any of the other "industrial" gasses. You can either get it in large pressurized cannisters, or you can have it delivered with a huge refrigerated tanker truck.

    You're right, there's no released details about the H2R, how much hydrogen is stored on board, what the range is, the vehicle weight... just that they "set a bunch of records".

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