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Thread: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Quote Originally Posted by emh View Post
    The biggest issue with the ELR was that it met the needs of no one. It didn't have the practicality for people with kids (like myself) nor the performance for people willing to put up with the inconveniences of a sporty coupe: FWD, 233hp, 0-60 in 6.4s, in what is essentially a 2-seater.

    And for the people interested in electrics, you could get a Model S for not much more money and that has the utility of a CUV and the performance of a RWD sport sedan.
    See, that's the thing.


    In the early going, the 'buzz' / item of most 'interest' is all about Prius - with an occasional dash of Lexus hybrid. And also occasionally in a somewhat lesser sense, some Ford Hybrid.


    But then, there is a shift, and 'it' becomes 'about' Tesla and the Model S.

    And then, Tesla this and Tesla that.

    In a multidimensional sense, somewhere 'in between' whatever that means in detail seems like a big enough area to play in - and keep going.


    Or..... way above.

    Like say a Cadillac 16 as welp, a Sixteen ( yeah, I know - just play along ) and then a V8 with a usable Battery and maybe ? a Plug standard / optional, and then.... all BEV.

    Perhaps spread out over a timeline.

    All up front in that big ass engine compartment.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMERICA 123 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by emh View Post
    The biggest issue with the ELR was that it met the needs of no one. It didn't have the practicality for people with kids (like myself) nor the performance for people willing to put up with the inconveniences of a sporty coupe: FWD, 233hp, 0-60 in 6.4s, in what is essentially a 2-seater.

    And for the people interested in electrics, you could get a Model S for not much more money and that has the utility of a CUV and the performance of a RWD sport sedan.
    See, that's the thing.


    In the early going, the 'buzz' / item of most 'interest' is all about Prius - with an occasional dash of Lexus hybrid. And also occasionally in a somewhat lesser sense, some Ford Hybrid.


    But then, there is a shift, and 'it' becomes 'about' Tesla and the Model S.

    And then, Tesla this and Tesla that.

    In a multidimensional sense, somewhere 'in between' whatever that means in detail seems like a big enough area to play in - and keep going.


    Or..... way above.

    Like say a Cadillac 16 as welp, a Sixteen ( yeah, I know - just play along ) and then a V8 with a usable Battery and maybe ? a Plug standard / optional, and then.... all BEV.

    Perhaps spread out over a timeline.

    All up front in that big ass engine compartment.......
    Works for me... And about 4000 buyers per year. Damn. GM would instantly have a hybrid.. Stay with me.. Hybridized super-luxury/mainstream brand. Explained.. A line-up from CT3 to CT16, and the XTs and Escalades between would vault Cadillac back above Daimler, to Rolls-Royce level again.
    Fantasy? No.. They literally and actually have all the tools needed to do it, but won't. Stay in your lane to a whole new level.. No GM.. Get out of your LANE.

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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaBangBang View Post
    Works for me... And about 4000 buyers per year. Damn. GM would instantly have a hybrid.. Stay with me.. Hybridized super-luxury/mainstream brand. Explained.. A line-up from CT3 to CT16, and the XTs and Escalades between would vault Cadillac back above Daimler, to Rolls-Royce level again.
    Fantasy? No.. They literally and actually have all the tools needed to do it, but won't. Stay in your lane to a whole new level.. No GM.. Get out of your LANE.
    I may not always agree with you, but everything you've posted in this thread has me nodding in agreement.
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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    It's not the division selling the Volt, any division could have used it. It's the market segment they pushed it on.

    Sure, electric drive is more energy efficient than gas drive, but it is not FINANCIALLY efficient. And that is the whole point of an economy car. An "economy" EV is an example of saving hundreds of Dollars in fuel, but spending thousands more for the car. That is NOT economy.

    Such a vehicle could only "prosper" in a more expensive market segment .... luxury, performance, heavy duty ... buyers in those segments are WAY more likely to spend the money needed to cover an EV's expense. And of course if that were done, the "light duty" powertrain used would need to have been scaled accordingly. The Volt's "economy" drivetrain hobbled the ELR.

    Someday, assuming continued EV advancements, economical EVs could work. But that time is not yet.
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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Quote Originally Posted by hydrogen View Post
    The Volt should have looked more like this from the start.

    Why do a lot of people think that the Volt concept was so attractive? It looks terrible to me...Come to think about it that era of GM concept cars were pretty lackluster IMHO.

    As for the ELR. I feel had it been first to be introduced it might have stood a better chance.

    Secondly had the ELR been a longer sleeker design it might have won over a few more people,especially at the initial asking price of it. To me The ELR looked stubby and "economy" whenever I saw one on the road.
    Last edited by Mr.Buttons; 03-29-2019 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Buttons View Post
    Why do a lot of people think that the Volt concept was so attractive? It looks terrible to me...Come to think about it the era of GM concept cars were pretty lackluster IMHO.

    As for the ELR. I feel had it been first to be introduced it might have stood a better chance.

    Secondly had the ELR been a longer sleeker design it might have won over a few more people,especially at the initial asking price of it. To me The ELR looked stubby and "economy" whenever I saw one on the road.
    Not only that, but I'm pretty sure that GM had a 40 mile range goal on Gen 1 voltec and went w/ the conventional hybrid shape because of that. This ghastly thing with its brick shaped front end probably would've killed at least 5 miles of range.
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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Of course the Volt should have been a Cadillac first, the cars price matches thier wallets much better, and the Caddy badge status would help cover absorb the higher costs of the E-REV technology and help to make it more profitable.

    GM Engineers lead the world with first class USA leading edge cutting edge E-REV technology, then marketing come a long and screw it all up, badge it up as a Chevy at a price out of the reach of thier Chevy badge buyers wallets, add leather seats just to make sure no lentil munching greenie will ever want to sit in one (A lot of buyers that buy Tesla's are Vegetarian/Vegan lentil eating greenies like Steve Job greenies) and round it all off with a corny massively irritating Chevy dance advertising campaign just for good measure.

    When the price cost of the Cadillac E-REV technology becomes a lot cheaper matches the Chevy buyers wallet with time let the technology filter down to Chevy.

    Sadly GM seem do everything arse about face the wrong way around would sell Rolls Royce's in downtown Detroit sink hole meth drinking estate where nobody had a job, or sell Trabant's & Lada's in Beverley Hills if they were running a private car independent dealership.
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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainDan View Post
    Someday, assuming continued EV advancements, economical EVs could work. But that time is not yet.
    GO TO the 32 Second mark. Dang website doesn't take the URL copied at that point.


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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Just look at the market. RAV4 (hybrid) is killing it. 40 MPG. Low tech Hybrid. How hard is this GM??? The Volt technology is the best in the world. Drop it into a Subaru Outback look alike and process the 300k worth of sales that will come. That should fill up lordstown for a few years

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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldsmobile stopped View Post
    Of course the Volt should have been a Cadillac first, the cars price matches thier wallets much better, and the Caddy badge status would help cover absorb the higher costs of the E-REV technology and help to make it more profitable.
    "The dream" was to sell ~120,000/year - How many Volts, trimmed-up to Cadillac level, (meaning even higher costs, and more loses per-car) with the same Chevy Volt pricing could GM have sold?

    IMHO they would have been lucky to sell as many as they did, which means selling under Cadillac wasn't the answer.
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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    I looked at a new Volt, but it was too small and cramped for my needs. I was fascinated and impressed by the technology.

    I assumed that GM would expand the Volt technology (electric + gas engine to recharge the battery), to bigger vehicles, including crossovers. I would have bought a bigger crossover vehicle with the technology (and more passenger + cargo space).

    It never happened. Anyone know why GM is not expanding the use of this technology? I do not want a pure electric vehicle, since I live in a semi-rural and area and do a lot of driving with multiple passengers.

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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    One thing that was overlooked about the Prius was its cheapness was a major factor in its success. It was cheap to buy and cheap to own and due to its unique styling sent out the "I'm green" message. Because of the cheapness, people were happy to overlook the fact that the Prius was like riding in a tin can, other than the hybrid drivetrain, it was a crappy, cheap vehicle. The considerably more refined, but considerably more expensive Volt was priced out of that crowd and didn't make as much financial sense as the gas savings didn't offset the cost. If it's a Chevy it needed a cheap price, the Volt didn't have that.

    And the other question is would the Prius been a success if it had a GM badge on it? I doubt it, the cheapness would've been a major issue that Toyota can get away with, but not most other makes.
    IMHO the Prius was ALWAYS priced and positioned as a "drop in" replacement family sedan the camry/accord was the car the Prius replaced and costed almost nothing more and OFFERED everything the Camry offered

    the Volt never "replaced" the Malibu in price OR function and was a WORSE and MORE expensive option

    Voltec has the inherent COST of carrying 2 complete drive trains AND a full range EV traction battery whereas the Prius is engineered to use as small and cheap of a traction battery as possible

    AND IMHO GM's INSISTENCE that VOLTEC IS AN EV system and comparing it to the LEAF / heck just look at the NAME "VOLT" it "stinks up" the brand as much as the "HYBRID" malibu's using BAS
    both techs are AWESOME BUT mis marketed AND NOT properly utilized

    IMHO the "VOLT-CROSS" NEEDED to come to market around 2012 and a BIGGER power version was needed in Buick (imagine a "fullsize" sedan "electra" with 60 mile range and 300 BHP on tap with a $75K price

    caddy was not READY to do green / Voltec / ELR they were chasing "ring times" and a WAY to catch BMW

    Buick USA needed a REASON to "be saved" beyond the Chinese liking the brand and a FULLSIZE ELECTRA as a "halo" for a green/tech laden "NEW Buick" followed up by standard "E assist" in the "normal" buicks and the Voltec based hybrid systems

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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    "The dream" was to sell ~120,000/year - How many Volts, trimmed-up to Cadillac level, (meaning even higher costs, and more loses per-car) with the same Chevy Volt pricing could GM have sold?

    IMHO they would have been lucky to sell as many as they did, which means selling under Cadillac wasn't the answer.
    Spot on.
    Looking at the genesis of Volt, it was always going to fail because the project
    under Bob Lutz completely lost sight of what the original objectives were:

    To beat the Prius and deliver Volt with a price in the high $20,000s

    What Lutz never considered was the spiraling development costs for a vehicle that
    was conceived as a BEV and then adding a range extending ICE to get it approved.
    At that very moment, GM lost the rabbit down a hole.

    The Voltec project was presented as different to a PHEV but really, the only difference was that
    GM began the project from the wrong end. By trying to develop a BEV with a range extending ICE,
    GM effectively prevented engineers from evolving an existing platform into to far less costly PHEV.
    GM was stuck, it would be a huge embarrassment to now cancel Volt after talking it up so much.

    The ELR was an even bigger mistake, it's objective was to offset some (half?) of Voltec's costs onto
    a high price low selling Cadillac ELR that could be written off quietly after a year or so if it didn't work.

    If GM was serious about Voltec and beating Toyota, it would have used either Theta or Epsillon platforms
    to deliver vehicles that could carry the costs better and showcase the superior efficiency of Voltec...

    A Cadillac SRX with Voltec and 30 mile BEV range, now that could carry a $65k price.
    Last edited by jpd80; 03-30-2019 at 04:32 PM.

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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    Cadillac ELR tainted with a Chevy drivetrain ruined ELR sales that were crap compared to the Chevy Volt that got given the E-REV drivetrain exclusively first, but then the ELR must have been highly profitable at $75,000 .

    But then if you add the sum of all the material costs that went into making the ELR/Bolt both were not a lot of difference under the skin just skin deep. Cadillac was using Chevy running gear Cadillac potential buyers probably shunned it as a tarted up Volt, would Rolls Royce buyers be happy if BMW slipped Mini brands EV electric running gear into a Rolls Royce tainted it done on the cheap first?


    $75,000 Cadillac ELR must have been very highly profitable ruined it was stained with Chevy drivetrain v $38,500 Volt that was probably losing money that's why it has been discontinued.

    Maybe if the E-Rev drivetrain technology had been used first exclusively in the Cadillac first, the Caddy sales would have been a lot lot higher, without the taunts leg pulling from neighbours it a Chevy Volt in different steel panel clothing, so you pay $36,500 extra for your old second hand Chevy drivetrain what a mug.

    GM Engineering leads the world with cutting edge leading technology totally ruined by GM who drop the very expensive E-REV technology in a Chevy first rather than a Cadillac first. End result Cadillac buyers shun a tarted up Chevy running gear with different steel panels, and Volt production line gets closed down ends as its losing big money just like Bolt EV is.
    Last edited by Oldsmobile stopped; 03-31-2019 at 06:31 AM.
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    Re: RIP Volt: Should It Have Been A Cadillac From The Start?

    The Volt should not have been a Cadillac or a Chevrolet as the poor sales of both the Volt and ELR proved. The Volt had to be a Buick from day one so it could have been sold globally - especially in China where Buick was already well established when the Volt was introduced (everyone is forgetting this critical FACT).

    Other key to success was the fact there had to be another variant of it introduced ASAP after the Volt was introduced with the best option being the then concept GMC Granite that could have been offered as both a Buick and GMC for global sales and the the Buick Encore should have offered a Voltec powertrain as an option.

    Being a Buick would have made the Volt a viable Global product from Day One with a Brand capable of handling the price premium along with a dealer network that was not as saturated with product and could give Volt buyers the added attention they require to make a sale, the smaller dealer network also lowers training costs and reduces variation in service issues.

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