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Thread: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    While the BEV truck and Utility market is still in it infancy,
    wouldn't it be much smarter to:
    1. Continue building mega profitable ICE trucks
    2. Limit investment exposure by outsourcing early BEV supplies
    3. by doing 2, avoid quickly redundant platforms an invest in NG technology.

    Gm talks a good game but i think they're well behind because their CEO didn't buy into BEV trucks earlier in the piece. I think Ford is already working on next gen stuff with Rivan while BEV Mach E and F150 is just around the corner.

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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Please let us know when you switch-over to an electric lawnmower!
    If I didn't live in a condo, I'd totally have one. I'm 100% onboard the electric lawn equipment bandwagon.
    Electric snowblower, not quite there yet. I'd rather just have someone come with a plow... 3 swipes and it's done!
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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by eaton53 View Post
    If I didn't live in a condo, I'd totally have one. I'm 100% onboard the electric lawn equipment bandwagon.
    Electric snowblower, not quite there yet. I'd rather just have someone come with a plow... 3 swipes and it's done!
    A plow; attached to an EV pickup of course!?
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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Yeah but........Yeah but........Yeah but........Yeah but........Yeah but........Yeah but........Yeah but........
    I'm thinking there is a song in there somewhere.





    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Cruze.... .... Impala..... LaCrosse..... XTS...... Letting someone else make that $2,000 make a name for themselves and steal your sales?

    And you don't even have to spend a dime on R & D, or wait for battery cost to go down, you can do it today!
    Not sure what your point is, that you can make a $2,000 profit on the ICE Impala and Lacrosse, etc? If so, I'd assume GM is not making that kind of money, if any, hence their cancelling them. I don't think any kind of advertising will increase their sales volume to the point of profitability. Nobody wants them. And the Cruze, realistically, to put a dent in the Civic/Corolla volume I'd think Chevy would have to spend a ton of money on incentives and marketing for the long term (meaning years) to get people to switch and "go Chevy". And what will these people do once GM throttles back on incentives? Stay with Chevy or go back to their Civic?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    You are in accounting, right? You can't conflate the incremental profit of a lower-margin fleet sale with selling a person buying an ICE truck with $20,000 profit vs. that same person buying one of your EV trucks, where you only made $2,000. GM is getting rid of vehicles they make low margins on, so you buy something they make more money on, now here, you say they are going to spend a crap-ton of money on something, just to get you to buy it, so they make $2,000 instead of $20,000. The irony in all of this is, the money they are spending to do all this, is coming from the product they are trying to get rid of.
    So you are saying GM should not make an electric pickup but let Ford/Rivan/Tesla go ahead with their plans to build one? What then happens if they take off? Now you have a nice ICE truck with dwindling volume that you no longer make $20k per vehicle on because you have to spread the same fixed costs over a smaller pool, plus you are now selling less. I think there are to many risks in playing it safe, hoping they don't take off, and not building that electric truck. If they do play it safe and not build it and the market takes off I'd think you'd be the first one calling GM a bunch of dolts for letting another market pass them by, just like Cadillac did with CUV's.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Wait until some "greeny" finds out how "un-green" EV is.......................
    I'll say something political - greenies/liberals don't let truth get in the way of their imagined reality.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    So GM's going to use the same artitecture; make $2,000 on a $50,000 truck and going to also make $2,000 on a $30,000 Malibu?

    How much would they make on a EV Cruze.... .... Impala..... LaCrosse..... XTS?


    I'm going to start playing the lottery now; because when I win, I'll be able to say "I told you so!"
    Presumably the smaller/lighter/more aerodynamic cars will use less batteries, therefore less cost vs. the quantity needed to move a brick on wheels.






    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    I went electric too!


    My washing machine is now electric, but I did still keep my gas dryer....................


    Please let us know when you switch-over to an electric lawnmower!
    Very funny, electric washing machine

    I can't wait until I can get a battery powered electric lawnmower!

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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    I can't wait until I can get a battery powered electric lawn mower!
    https://www.husqvarna.com/us/product...c-lawn-mowers/

    Not only electric, but autonomous too! Take back your weekend!

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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDiablo View Post
    https://www.husqvarna.com/us/product...c-lawn-mowers/

    Not only electric, but autonomous too! Take back your weekend!
    Ha! I knew these puppies were out there, now I see, I see. The cutting specs are pretty short, .8 to 2.4". I usually do our lawn at 3.5" to 4". Our John Deere D130 cost about two grand I think, now I'm sorry we didn't pop for the 46" 3-blade job with the Kawasaki engine, but oh vell.

    I'd love to see one of these sukkaz at work.
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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    Ha! I knew these puppies were out there, now I see, I see. The cutting specs are pretty short, .8 to 2.4". I usually do our lawn at 3.5" to 4". Our John Deere D130 cost about two grand I think, now I'm sorry we didn't pop for the 46" 3-blade job with the Kawasaki engine, but oh vell.

    I'd love to see one of these sukkaz at work.
    Wow really? I'll only cut at that height during a real dry summer. I usually cut down to around 2" normally. The website I posted sells it pretty good, I'm impressed, and would love to check out actual owners lawns and see it in action as well. Those prices though....hard to say it's worth it at that price, I've got a lot of lawn so would need the big'un.

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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyDiablo View Post
    Wow really? I'll only cut at that height during a real dry summer. I usually cut down to around 2" normally. The website I posted sells it pretty good, I'm impressed, and would love to check out actual owners lawns and see it in action as well. Those prices though....hard to say it's worth it at that price, I've got a lot of lawn so would need the big'un.
    Our lawn care peeps recommended 4". It's been raining this spring like Noah is building a ship and the damn stuff needs cutting every other day it seems. We had a grub attack a couple of years ago, didn't have to mow much then because our front yard looked like the Sahara.

    This is thick grass, it would probably look badly burned if I mowed it at 2".

    However, if Hans Husqvarna would care to drop one off for some some expert road testing, I'd consider using one for a month or so. After a month of watching the Husky robot around--and providing it never went rogue and killed a neighbor down the street during a lightning storm power surge--I'd probably be too lazy to use the JD again.
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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    I have my mower set at a pretty high height as well, not sure what the actual measurement is though, must be at least 3.5". My lawn was in horrible shape when I bought my house ~13 years ago. I've spent a lot of money and time making it a weedless thing of beauty!

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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post

    Not sure what your point is, that you can make a $2,000 profit on the ICE Impala and Lacrosse, etc? If so, I'd assume GM is not making that kind of money, if any, hence their cancelling them. I don't think any kind of advertising will increase their sales volume to the point of profitability. Nobody wants them. And the Cruze, realistically, to put a dent in the Civic/Corolla volume I'd think Chevy would have to spend a ton of money on incentives and marketing for the long term (meaning years) to get people to switch and "go Chevy". And what will these people do once GM throttles back on incentives? Stay with Chevy or go back to their Civic?
    So GM can't make $2,000 on an Impala or LaCrosse, something that currently sells, and is already developed, but they can spend millions on something with no market, to make $2,000, "maybe"?



    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post

    So you are saying GM should not make an electric pickup but let Ford/Rivan/Tesla go ahead with their plans to build one? What then happens if they take off? Now you have a nice ICE truck with dwindling volume that you no longer make $20k per vehicle on because you have to spread the same fixed costs over a smaller pool, plus you are now selling less. I think there are to many risks in playing it safe, hoping they don't take off, and not building that electric truck. If they do play it safe and not build it and the market takes off I'd think you'd be the first one calling GM a bunch of dolts for letting another market pass them by, just like Cadillac did with CUV's.
    GM is letting others take the Impala/LaCrosse profits, right?

    You are trying to argue both sides...................


    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    Presumably the smaller/lighter/more aerodynamic cars will use less batteries, therefore less cost vs. the quantity needed to move a brick on wheels.
    And factually, smaller vehicles, sell for less money too.................



    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post

    Very funny, electric washing machine
    But I still have a gas dryer..................... don't you get it?


    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    I can't wait until I can get a battery powered electric lawnmower!
    Don't wait for me; it'll never happen....................

    I'd need 10 battery-packs to do my lawn, right now it is so thick, I have to keep my blade razor sharp, and it still takes over a tank of gas.
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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    So GM can't make $2,000 on an Impala or LaCrosse, something that currently sells, and is already developed, but they can spend millions on something with no market, to make $2,000, "maybe"?

    I'd need 10 battery-packs to do my lawn, right now it is so thick, I have to keep my blade razor sharp, and it still takes over a tank of gas.
    That's the problem. Lacrosse and Impala are not selling. Their market is shrinking. The costs of producing a gasoline powered vehicle is increasing. Their margins are decreasing.

    The Electric vehicle market is nearly doubling every year. The costs of producing battery electric vehicles are dropping rapidly. When GM launched the Gen I Volt in 2010 battery costs were over $800/KWh. When GM launched the Bolt EV in 2016 battery costs were $145/KWh. Today battery costs are now about $100/KWh and are projected to continue to fall to below $75/KWh by 2025. Prices for all other components such as the power inverter are also expected to continue to fall rapidly.

    Whatever the reality is today is mostly irrelevant. What is important is what is the reality going to be 5 - 10 - 15 years from now? In 10 years it looks like GM won't be able to make $15K on a fossil fueled pickup truck. But it looks like they will be able to make that kind of money on an electric truck in that same time frame.

    As for technology that is also now irrelevant. Other than the fact that >95% of EV charging is done at home during off peak times there is today already hundreds of 350KW DC fast chargers in the US (and growing rapidly [about 10 being added every week]). These chargers can charge an EV truck with a range of 400 miles to about 80% in 25mins. That's barely enough time to take a piss and grab a snack.

    In March my wife and I with two other friends drove our Bolt EV from Ontario, Canada to Orlando, Florida and back again with no significant issues. Our charging stops ranged from as low as 16 mins to as high as 1.5 hours with the average being just over 40 mins. Longer stops were planned to coincide with meal breaks. It all worked out incredibly well and the infrastructure in that time has already improved to the point that if we were to do it again it would be even faster and easier to do.

    As for lawn mowers I just picked up a 21" self propelled EGO lawn mower and trimmer a few weeks ago with a single 56V 7.5Ah battery. My house is on a 52ft wide by 125ft deep lot. I can cut my whole lawn and use the weed trimmer with the same battery on one charge and still have over 1/3'rd of a battery charge remaining. I've been very impressed with it so far in the few times I have used it.
    Last edited by MechEng; 06-10-2019 at 11:07 AM.
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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    So GM can't make $2,000 on an Impala or LaCrosse, something that currently sells, and is already developed, but they can spend millions on something with no market, to make $2,000, "maybe"?
    I never said they'd make an Impala EV, I was merely using that vehicle because you brought it up. And if the EV platform is scalable from a full sized truck to a small car (maybe that is a stretch, but maybe scalable from a small car to full sized CUV) then it opens up the potential for a lot of specialty cars as now most of the under-the-skin parts will be interchangeable. You are applying current car making platform thinking to EV's, processes which will not be relevant to EV's.

    In other words, with EV's I don't think they will be spending hundreds of millions of $$ to develop full sized cars. They will be spending that money for one EV platform that will be scalable to make everything from a Spark to Enclave sized vehicle, thus bringing way down the development costs of individual car lines.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    GM is letting others take the Impala/LaCrosse profits, right?

    You are trying to argue both sides...................
    I'm not sure what you are getting at. Do you mean GM abandoning the full sized car market? If so, they are abandoning it because they aren't making money. See my bullet above regarding applying ICE platform thinking to EV's, I think that is what you are doing.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    And factually, smaller vehicles, sell for less money too.................
    Yep.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    But I still have a gas dryer..................... don't you get it?
    Ha, missed that one. I thought you were implying the washer was electric, which they all are. Now that you had to explain it to me , I do find you comment to be pretty slick!




    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    Don't wait for me; it'll never happen....................

    I'd need 10 battery-packs to do my lawn, right now it is so thick, I have to keep my blade razor sharp, and it still takes over a tank of gas.
    Mine is good and thick too, nearly an acre. However, I think we are both applying old fashioned ICE thinking here. By coincidence, I went to Loews today and they had a display for a self cutting electric lawnmower. I suspect that's what we will end up with once the price comes down (it was $1,600). I didn't have much time to check it out, but I think it will be like the indoor electric/self cleaning vacuums - it charges itself when it is time. So I bet it will mow your lawn constantly and just dock when needed. Probably will never do the whole thing at once.

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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by MechEng View Post
    That's the problem. Lacrosse and Impala are not selling. Their market is shrinking. The costs of producing a gasoline powered vehicle is increasing. Their margins are decreasing.

    The Electric vehicle market is nearly doubling every year. The costs of producing battery electric vehicles are dropping rapidly. When GM launched the Gen I Volt in 2010 battery costs were over $800/KWh. When GM launched the Bolt EV in 2016 battery costs were $145/KWh. Today battery costs are now about $100/KWh and are projected to continue to fall to below $75/KWh by 2025. Prices for all other components such as the power inverter are also expected to continue to fall rapidly.

    Whatever the reality is today is mostly irrelevant. What is important is what is the reality going to be 5 - 10 - 15 years from now? In 10 years it looks like GM won't be able to make $15K on a fossil fueled pickup truck. But it looks like they will be able to make that kind of money on an electric truck in that same time frame.

    As for technology that is also now irrelevant. Other than the fact that >95% of EV charging is done at home during off peak times there is today already hundreds of 350KW DC fast chargers in the US (and growing rapidly [about 10 being added every week]). These chargers can charge an EV truck with a range of 400 miles to about 80% in 25mins. That's barely enough time to take a piss and grab a snack.

    In March my wife and I with two other friends drove our Bolt EV from Ontario, Canada to Orlando, Florida and back again with no significant issues. Our charging stops ranged from as low as 16 mins to as high as 1.5 hours with the average being just over 40 mins. Longer stops were planned to coincide with meal breaks. It all worked out incredibly well and the infrastructure in that time has already improved to the point that if we were to do it again it would be even faster and easier to do.

    As for lawn mowers I just picked up a 21" self propelled EGO lawn mower and trimmer a few weeks ago with a single 56V 7.5Ah battery. My house is on a 52ft wide by 125ft deep lot. I can cut my whole lawn and use the weed trimmer with the same battery on one charge and still have over 1/3'rd of a battery charge remaining. I've been very impressed with it so far in the few times I have used it.

    Costs are coming down and demand is still rising but I think you are too optimistic on the future of EVs. Battery technology would have to make large leaps to be $15K profitable and I just don't see big EV pickup demand unless gas prices really spike and stay high. Even then, how useful is an EV truck on a work sight? Where do you plug it in?

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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    I'm not sure what you are getting at. Do you mean GM abandoning the full sized car market? If so, they are abandoning it because they aren't making money. See my bullet above regarding applying ICE platform thinking to EV's, I think that is what you are doing.
    GM sold 250K Epsilon Sedan's last year, (in the US) if there isn't enough economies of scale there, how is there going to be with EV's?

    Spend millions to make $2K on an EV truck (maybe).





    Quote Originally Posted by kool1 View Post
    Costs are coming down and demand is still rising but I think you are too optimistic on the future of EVs. Battery technology would have to make large leaps to be $15K profitable and I just don't see big EV pickup demand unless gas prices really spike and stay high. Even then, how useful is an EV truck on a work sight? Where do you plug it in?
    No worries, I've got a gas generator in the bed!
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    Re: GM Talks Electric Pickups, Again

    Quote Originally Posted by MechEng View Post
    That's the problem. Lacrosse and Impala are not selling. Their market is shrinking. The costs of producing a gasoline powered vehicle is increasing. Their margins are decreasing.
    What is making ICE cost go up, that doesn't impact EV's? Tires? Seats? Glass? Body Panels?.................



    Quote Originally Posted by MechEng View Post
    The Electric vehicle market is nearly doubling every year. The costs of producing battery electric vehicles are dropping rapidly. When GM launched the Gen I Volt in 2010 battery costs were over $800/KWh. When GM launched the Bolt EV in 2016 battery costs were $145/KWh. Today battery costs are now about $100/KWh and are projected to continue to fall to below $75/KWh by 2025. Prices for all other components such as the power inverter are also expected to continue to fall rapidly.
    Percentage-wise, sure - "Statistical Manipulation". But I think they are actually down YTD in the US for 2019. Bolt/Volt were down over 15% last year and down more in Q1.


    Quote Originally Posted by MechEng View Post
    Whatever the reality is today is mostly irrelevant. What is important is what is the reality going to be 5 - 10 - 15 years from now? In 10 years it looks like GM won't be able to make $15K on a fossil fueled pickup truck. But it looks like they will be able to make that kind of money on an electric truck in that same time frame.
    Yep, same thing we were told.................. 5 - 10 - 15 years AGO.


    Quote Originally Posted by MechEng View Post
    As for technology that is also now irrelevant. Other than the fact that >95% of EV charging is done at home during off peak times there is today already hundreds of 350KW DC fast chargers in the US (and growing rapidly [about 10 being added every week]). These chargers can charge an EV truck with a range of 400 miles to about 80% in 25mins. That's barely enough time to take a piss and grab a snack.
    It has practical applications; once batteries get down to $150 like the LaCrosse it'll make more sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by MechEng View Post
    In March my wife and I with two other friends drove our Bolt EV from Ontario, Canada to Orlando, Florida and back again with no significant issues. Our charging stops ranged from as low as 16 mins to as high as 1.5 hours with the average being just over 40 mins. Longer stops were planned to coincide with meal breaks. It all worked out incredibly well and the infrastructure in that time has already improved to the point that if we were to do it again it would be even faster and easier to do.
    Would love to see the full break-down.


    Quote Originally Posted by MechEng View Post
    As for lawn mowers I just picked up a 21" self propelled EGO lawn mower and trimmer a few weeks ago with a single 56V 7.5Ah battery. My house is on a 52ft wide by 125ft deep lot. I can cut my whole lawn and use the weed trimmer with the same battery on one charge and still have over 1/3'rd of a battery charge remaining. I've been very impressed with it so far in the few times I have used it.
    My yard is almost 4 times that size.................
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    Past: '17 Cruze; '15 F150; '14 Volt; '13 MKX; '13 Silverado; '13 Fusion; '11 Ram; '10 Commander; '08 Sierra; '07 Rendezvous; '05 Ram; '04 Grand Cherokee; '03 F150; '01 Silverado; '00 Jimmy; '99 Sierra; '97 Ram; '96 Mustang GT; '96 Jimmy; '90 Escort GT; '89 Ranger; '84 Omni; '76 Malibu; '78 LeMans; '85 Escort; '82 Lynx; '75 Sierra

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