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Thread: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Quote Originally Posted by tentacles View Post
    GM will also have to follow VW's lead and make all their other engines terrible in comparison so people have a reason to pick the diesel. Maybe bring back the Iron Duke as a base engine for the Cruze, like VW has done with the 8v 2.0l?

    Diesel passenger cars are a dead end technology and makes no sense anywhere. EU emissions will catch up with North American emissionsin a few years and all but make pass car diesels illegal and that day can't come soon enough. You guys know that **** causes cancer right?
    Misinformation ...

    BMW, Mazda, M/B, Mini have had Euro Step VI diesel vehicles on sale for months, some at least 28 months ahead of requirements, 84 of them to date. I think Mazda was the first.

    There were NO gasoline machines that were certified to meet that level of "cleanliness" until the the last 2 weeks. And to date there are only 38 as clean as the diesels ... all from BMW, M/B, Mini.

    Even your "super clean" US gasoline exports can not meet Euro Step VI, at least not so far.

    Further, I doudt more than a couple of current US powerfrain technologies even have a chance at meeting the 2015 EU CO2 requirents.

    As for your "cancer scare", I hope you understand that the fine sub-PM2.5 particle matter and volatile hydrocarbons from advance gasoline enigines are generally a greater risk to environment and health than current advanced diesel emissions. You need to look at data later than pre-2000s coal mine studies...

    And as kts350 also pointedout
    Price difference between petrol and diesel models is $1000.
    Of course he is refering to an engine with a displacement in the 2 Liter range ... not 4~6 Liters which for obvious reasons are FAR more expensive ... if for no other reason than higher development costs spread over substantually lower volumes.

    Edit: All diesels currently rated Euro Step VI are <3.0 Liters. Further, the gasoline Euro Step VI machines are equiped with engines <2.0 Liters.

    What would that do to the US HP/torque game to be as clean as the EU machines?

    As I see it ... the only thing keeping a FLOOD of non-US diesels out of the US is NOx ... and Euro Step VI (4Q2014) is getting VERY close.
    Last edited by 44 mpg by 2010; 12-16-2012 at 09:20 AM.
    It is important what WE use as our "moral compass" and ...
    the "measuring stick" chosen for judging progress/success as well.


    44 mpg by 2010 ... 2013?

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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    here is what will happen...The Cruze will not be a smashing success for 2 reason because GM had too high of expectations or GM messed it up in some sort of way. Then GM will scrap all plans of any LD diesels. Due to the cruze failure.
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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Quote Originally Posted by kylepo View Post
    here is what will happen...The Cruze will not be a smashing success for 2 reason because GM had too high of expectations or GM messed it up in some sort of way. Then GM will scrap all plans of any LD diesels. Due to the cruze failure.
    Here is some supporting evidence for your conclusion.

    1) The EU diesel Cruze is NOT outstanding in fuel frugality


    2) EU USER MPG Experience = 2011~2013 Diesel Cruze

    ALL
    Count Fuel type min Ø max
    31 Diesel 5,45 6,75 9,28
    USER AVERAGE 6.75 L/100 km = 34.84 mpg(US) for sample size of 31

    Manual Transmission
    Count Fuel type min Ø max
    25 Diesel 5,45 6,62 8,48
    USER AVERAGE 6.62 L/100 km = 35.5 mpg(US) for sample size of 25

    Automatic Transmission
    Count Fuel type min Ø max
    6 Diesel 7,16 8,11 9,28
    USER AVERAGE 8.11 L/100 km = 29.0 mpg(US) for sample size of 6


    2012 M/T
    Count Fuel type min Ø max
    14 Diesel 5,45 6,68 7,93


    2012 A/T
    Count Fuel type min Ø max
    3 Diesel 7,49 8,56 9,28



    3) EU USER MPG Experience Estimates = Opel 2012-2013 Insignia 160PS diesel
    Count Fuel type min Ø max
    13 Diesel 5,36 6,50 7,49

    Manual Transmission
    Count Fuel type min Ø max
    7 Diesel 5,36 5,93 6,62
    USER AVERAGE 5.93 L/100 km = 39.7 mpg(US) for sample size of 7

    Automatic Transmission
    Count Fuel type min Ø max
    6 Diesel 6,69 7,23 7,49
    USER AVERAGE 7.23 L/100 km = 32.5 mpg(US) for sample size of 6


    4) 2012-2012 Passat

    Count Fuel type min Ø max
    54 Diesel 4,14 6,07 7,88
    7 Gasoline 5,71 8,37 9,33
    2 CNG 5,95 6,29 6,91

    Manual Transmission
    http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overvi...=1&powerunit=2

    MT Diesel average 6.05 L/100km or 38.9 mpg(US) versus fueleconomy.gov’s shared 41.9 mpg(US)
    These seem to correlate within ≈ 8% of EPA’s Shared MPG Estimate (+/-4%?)

    Automatic Transmission
    http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overvi...=2&powerunit=2

    AT Diesel average 7.03 L/100km or 33.5 mpg(US) versus fueleconomy.gov’s shared 41.5 mpg(US)



    Now, draw your own conclusions.


    Note: In researching this information I visited several German forums. It is apparent that many EU drivers operate their vehicles at or ABOVE 120 kmph. There were several discussions about 140 kmph and above, obvious FE killers.

    A very rough rule of thumb (still being tested) seems to be an 8% loss in fuel economy for evey 5 mph increase above 60 mpg for diesels. I am assuming it is greater for gasoline vehicles.
    Last edited by 44 mpg by 2010; 12-16-2012 at 11:40 AM.
    It is important what WE use as our "moral compass" and ...
    the "measuring stick" chosen for judging progress/success as well.


    44 mpg by 2010 ... 2013?

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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Quote Originally Posted by JBsZ06 View Post
    I hear diesels are tq monsters and they are fun to drive.
    100% true.
    I drove the entire class (Cruze, Focus, Elantra, etc.) and the TDI's torque made the Jetta Sportwagon best in the compact class for me.

    The Volt is even better though... it has torque and silence.
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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Quote Originally Posted by swagled View Post
    The final irony is that Oldsmobile did beef up the engine in its last year. Olds loyalists will say the diesel was good. It's one of many stories of GM rushing a product to market, that they had to correct - only to find that nobody was paying attention by the end stage.
    Just like the Fiero...

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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Ah..... more great news for diesels - and for diesels for the USA.

    A significant crack in the dam....


    - Improved filters, turbochargers and fuel injection have helped make the motors quieter and cleaner than in 1999, when Gov. Shintaro Ishihara waved a bottle of black soot at reporters as he campaigned to bar them from Tokyo streets.

    "I remember the diesel car I used in driving school 22 years ago -- a noisy, dirty one that produced smoke and soot," said Atsuo Ito, a 39-year-old advertising executive who bought a new Mazda Diesel CX-5 crossover. "This car is quiet, clean, and most important, it cut my monthly fuel expense by half."

    'Brisk demand'

    The national government this year introduced subsidies of as much as 180,000 yen ($2,200) for diesels.

    By 2020, the government wants 5 percent of new passenger vehicles to use the technology, up from 0.4 percent last year.

    As of October, sales of diesels had tripled from last year to 31,425 units in Japan, according to the Japan Automotive Dealers Association.

    --

    "The idea younger people have of diesel cars is quite different from the elder generation, who were influenced by Ishihara," said Yoshiaki Kawano, an analyst with IHS Automotive in Tokyo.

    "Their impression is that the cars are environmentally friendly and popular in Europe."

    --

    Mazda said 80 percent of orders for its CX-5 sport utility vehicle and Mazda6 sedan in Japan this year are powered by diesel engines even though they cost about 20 percent more than comparable gasoline versions.

    A diesel CX-5 gets 18.6 kilometers per liter (43.7 miles per gallon based on Japanese standards), 16 percent more than the comparable gasoline version, according to Mazda.

    --

    "We have been surprised to see such brisk demand," Mazda President Takashi Yamanouchi said last month.

    Customers are "convinced that they want diesels."

    --

    Global sales of diesel cars will rise 66 percent between 2010 and 2018, to 22 million, making up about 18 percent of total vehicle deliveries in 2018, according to LMC Automotive.

    Growth will come mainly from North America, Eastern Europe and Asia, while diesel's share in Western Europe will decline due to regulatory standards and market saturation in some countries, the researcher said.

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/2012...#ixzz2FF5XItv2

    Much, much more @ the link.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 12-16-2012 at 12:59 PM.
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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    as for emissions I have heard that Gas DIRECT INJECTION engines will be harder to meet future emissions then Diesels W after treatment including SCR "ADDBLUE"
    it is a shame that GM is going out with a not well rated Diesel as there first attempt and even stating the DIESEL is NOT the economy leader but sporty leader

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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Remember those reports that came later - about the fleet of what, 4.5 DM Suburbans or Tahoes or Pick Ups...... still running around in GM's hands - and averaging 25 mpg ?

    Was supposed to also represent in smaller, older dollars a 600 $ per engine cost reduction - which at that level of the game and measurement - is huge.
    "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression — and they're about to do it again."
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    Re: GM “Fundamentally” in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    Better late than never. GM, lead the way. Well, after VW anyway.

    what a very contradictory comment. It is in fact the general way of thinking for many posters on this site. You say "better late than never," but then follow it with "lead the way." What about Ford, Nissan, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, and wretched charlitans from Hyundai? Could it be GM is not actually late at all?

    sorry to come off like this but it often seems here that GM is scolded for certain behaviour while it's competitors are praised for doing (or not doing)the same things. Great example is the VW being like old GM thread where it seems VW is praised for having too many brands overlapping but GM gets trash talk for Chevy and GMC having similar looks for the trucks
    Last edited by tajmioso; 12-16-2012 at 03:11 PM.

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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    GM needs the 300 hp/ 520 lb ft 4.5 Duramax in the US market post haste, and I believe it would be a very desirable option in every single K2XX product barring the Escalade.
    I want a car so violent that the mere thought of full throttle would cause a heart attack. That actually going wide open throttle in would result in nothing less than instant death!
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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    GM needs the 300 hp/ 520 lb ft 4.5 Duramax in the US market post haste, and I believe it would be a very desirable option in every single K2XX product barring the Escalade.
    I second that.
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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    GM needs the 300 hp/ 520 lb ft 4.5 Duramax in the US market post haste, and I believe it would be a very desirable option in every single K2XX product barring the Escalade.
    Germeezy1, not to quibble, but the 'later' reports on the 4.5 DM spoke of 310, 310 + or a minimum of 310 for the HP.

    And sure, if it had come, some would have likely been @ 300 or even lower for the commercial type applications and or Vans - in theory...... perhaps.

    Also, we do differ - a revised Escalade ( and GMC Ykon Denali ) line up with a 4.5 DM would be well worth it - those are some of the best possible applications.

    Take it to the German SUV 'higher line' DT product.

    And - some of the gassers - in a different way.

    GLs, MLs, Touaregs, Q7s and Cayennes - all stuck with 'mundane' 3.0 DTs currently - as you know.


    ( If you want the big rewards..... first V8 DT that makes sense - is it, period. Especially..... in a world of ever decreasing V8 availability..... and increasing numbers of two, three, and four cylinders. )



    ***********


    Some do not understand what the rest face for fuel prices.

    According to the latest EIA report for 10DEC2012, national averages are -

    Gasoline :

    Regular 3.297

    Regular reformulated 3.459

    Midgrade 3.436

    Midgrade reformulated 3.636

    Premium 3.606

    Premium reformulated 3.770


    On Road Diesel ( all ULSD ) : 3.991



    *****



    Just over a month ago, on 5NOV2012, it looked like this.


    Gasoline :

    Regular 3.406

    Regular reformulated 3.673

    Midgrade 3.542

    Midgrade reformulated 3.864

    Premium 3.978

    Premium reformulated 3.978

    On road Diesel ( all ULSD ) : 4.010
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 12-16-2012 at 08:13 PM.
    "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression — and they're about to do it again."
    "The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."
    "If America is circling the drain, Goldman Sachs has found a way to be that drain — " Matt Taibbi

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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Debut the 4.5L? And take sales away from Ford and Dodge?
    Are you kidding?
    Dan Akerson will never allow that to happen.

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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Actually, that remains tbd.

    And then why - either way.

    One thing though that is certain.

    The good news is that under Akerson, real financial evaluations will occur - rather than all that pie in the sky BS from say the electrification people and the Chebbie uberalles promotin' people. No more funny accountin' to screw Opel and puff up Chebbie's results - you know, all the stuff like that - which will also help the diesel cause.

    ( Nice to see Opel get a fair trail for change, even if it took 50 plus years to come about. Damn shame it didn't happen sooner though, for Olds, Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer to name just a few . )

    Besides,

    GM diesel cannot possibly receive a lousier, BS handjo - handshake internally than it did starting suddenly in 2009 - with Mr. Lutz appearing to be a big part of that.

    I know I know...... only a genius could, during a time of extreme financial duress and quite frankly, Corporate assassination - only a genius could decide various money losing and super expensive battery electrification programs should be pursued over all other - including money making - much better automatic transmissions and diesels.


    But of course, one had a longer term view - in theory.

    And so here we are today, which was yesterday's tomorrow.

    And what, do we have ?

    Well among other much like it ......

    California take rate on diesels is off the charts good - meanwhile Chevrolet's Cali marketshare continues to decline - shear genius alright - none more clever.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 12-16-2012 at 09:55 PM.
    "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression — and they're about to do it again."
    "The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."
    "If America is circling the drain, Goldman Sachs has found a way to be that drain — " Matt Taibbi

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    Re: GM "Fundamentally" in Favor of Expanding US Diesel Line-Up

    Agreed.
    When you spend millions developing the most advanced,
    innovative diesel engine on the planet,
    the only reasonable course of action is to immediately mothball it.

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