GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

  1. Welcome to GM Inside News Forum – General discussion forum for GM

    Welcome to GM Inside News Forum - a website dedicated to all things GM.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join GM Inside News Forum today!
     
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23

Thread: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

  1. #1
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member Neanderthal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    A sunny cave in Transylvania
    Posts
    34,029
    Thanks
    8,144
    Thanked 6,594 Times in 4,102 Posts
    My Ride
    17 Soul&/01 PT LTD/15 JD130

    GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    GM faces blowback on federal driverless car petition
    Keith Laing, The Detroit News Published 11:35 a.m. ET May 23, 2019 | Updated 1:10 p.m. ET May 23, 2019

    Washington — General Motors Co. is running into opposition to its petition to federal regulators for permission to put up to 5,000 driverless cars — without steering wheels or control pedals — on public roads.

    In comments submitted to National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, groups that represent car dealers, insurers and road safety advocates took issue with the Detroit carmaker's request to put 2,500 "driverless zero‐emission autonomous" vehicles on the road annually for a two-year period beginning this year.

    The petition, submitted by GM in January 2018 but not made public for comment until March of this year, is seen as the company's first step in deploying a driverless-taxi fleet of Chevrolet Bolt EV-based cars, known as the Cruise AV. GM's petition is for the current maximum number of exemptions allowed to federal motor vehicle safety standards that require cars to have human operators.

    Thomas Karol, general counsel for federal issues for the National Association of Mutual Insurance Companies, which lobbies for property and casualty insurance providers, said NHTSA "must assess whether an ADS [automated driving system] steers, brakes and accelerates at least as effectively and safely as a human driver" before it grants permission to companies like GM to put self-driving cars on U.S. roads.

    "If NHTSA is not sure that an ADS is at least as safe as existing human-operated vehicles, NHTSA has no business enabling ADS to operate on the roads, and surely has no business removing federally mandated vehicle safety standards to a vehicle that they do not know if its as safe as existing vehicles," Karol said in comments submitted May 17.

    Douglas Greenhaus, chief regulatory counsel of Environment, Health and Safety for the National Automobile Dealers Association, which represents franchised automobile and truck dealers, also urged NHTSA to proceed with caution on the petition.

    Noting that GM is the first company to petition for fully autonomous self-driving cars, Greenhaus said in comments submitted on May 20 that NHTSA should evaluate it in terms of its potential impact on the public’s perception and confidence in such vehicles.

    "At the very least," he said, "the public needs to know that ZEAV [zero emission autonomous vehicles] will compare favorably to similarly equipped ... human-controlled GM vehicles, and that a ZEAV ADS will operate at a safety level equal to or greater than an average human driver."

    Jason Levine, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, a Washington, D.C.-based consumer advocacy nonprofit, said GM's petition failed to demonstrate its fully self-driving cars match the safety levels required for human-operated vehicles.

    "Despite a petition of 97 pages, and 78 footnotes, GM has provided no data that establishes...the absolute value of safety" of its vehicles, Levine said.

    Jill Ingrassia, managing director of government relations and traffic safety advocacy for AAA, urged NHTSA to carefully consider the merits of GM's proposal, noting that polls consistently show the driving public is skeptical about self-driving cars.

    "While there is much enthusiasm in the auto and technology industries to accelerate rapid development and deployment of automated vehicles, three-in-four Americans remain afraid of fully self-driving vehicles," she said in comments submitted on May 20, referencing findings from AAA’s 2019 annual automated vehicles survey.

    "Missteps in the industry – as we have already seen from a number of high-profile incidents involving automated vehicles – could hamper future widespread consumer adoption," Ingrassia continued. "As a result, the potential benefits of these technologies may be delayed."

    A GM spokesperson said it would review the comments.

    "Safety is the cornerstone of our approach to the design, development and testing of our Zero Emission Autonomous Vehicles," the company said in a statement. "We believe that automated technology has tremendous potential to reduce the human operator error that is a leading cause of more than 90% of vehicle crashes.

    The company said the vehicle represents important advances in safety, zero emission vehicles and mobility, and meets the safety objectives of federal standards.

    GM received support for its petition from Mothers Against Drunk Driving, which said fully driverless cars hold the promise of eliminating drunk and impaired driving.

    "Nationwide, more than 37,000 people died in 2017 due to car crashes," J.T. Griffin, chief government affairs officer for MADD, said in comments May 15. "More than 90 percent of these traffic crashes are caused by human error or behavior. Self-driving vehicles will save lives by eliminating errors such as distracted, drunk or drowsy driving."

    The Alliance for Automobile Manufacturers, which lobbies for GM and other major carmakers in Washington, concurred.

    "Unlike conventional human drivers," said the alliance's Scott Schmidt, "the (automated driving system) can’t get distracted, drive impaired or fall asleep at the wheel."

    [email protected]

    (202) 662-8735

    Twitter: @Keith_Laing


    https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...on/1204052001/

    I didn't see where the tort attorneys are standing on this, but I can take a wild guess.

    I believe they want to start out in San Fran Psycho. That makes sense for a number of reasons. Why not start out in the five square miles that surround GM HQ in MoTown? That would seem fitting.
    Last edited by Neanderthal; 06-04-2019 at 08:08 PM.
    2017 Soul &, Titanium

    Where liberty dwells, there is my country. Benjamin Franklin

    The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. Thomas Jefferson

    Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Neanderthal For This Useful Post:

    1958carnut (06-04-2019),AMERICA 123 (06-04-2019)

  3. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  4. #2
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC Rumpole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    256
    Thanks
    349
    Thanked 373 Times in 141 Posts
    My Ride
    06 Cadillac CTSV

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    This give renewed meaning to the phrase: "Over my dead body."

  5. #3
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8 richmond2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Winterpeg
    Posts
    8,667
    Thanks
    9,758
    Thanked 1,671 Times in 1,197 Posts
    My Ride
    2014 RAM 1500 HEMI

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    GM has always talked that autonomous and zero emissions are interconnected like we NEED AV for EV to work when the 2 technologies are unrelated

  6. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  7. #4
    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 rand49er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    South Lyon, MI
    Posts
    1,860
    Thanks
    660
    Thanked 843 Times in 487 Posts

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    Quote Originally Posted by richmond2000 View Post
    GM has always talked that autonomous and zero emissions are interconnected like we NEED AV for EV to work when the 2 technologies are unrelated
    Indeed, they are unrelated. However, they're evolving together, side by side and will debut together.

    "San Fran Psycho."
    2005 CTS-V, LS6, supercharged, L-T headers, etc SOLD !!!
    2011 Cruze ECO, 1.4T, 6-spd manual. (my DD) SOLD !!!
    2012 SRX, 3.6, AWD (wife's car)
    2017 Volt Premier Iridescent Pearl Tricoat (son has taken it over)
    2016 ATS Premium 6MT (my DD)

  8. #5
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Ed753's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    18,655
    Thanks
    12,141
    Thanked 7,865 Times in 4,683 Posts
    My Ride
    2018 GMC Sierra Crew 6 1/2'

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er View Post
    Indeed, they are unrelated. However, they're evolving together, side by side and will debut together.

    "San Fran Psycho."
    We've got EV's now, no?
    Current: Hidden Content Hidden Content

    Past: '17 Cruze; '15 F150; '14 Volt; '13 MKX; '13 Silverado; '13 Fusion; '11 Ram; '10 Commander; '08 Sierra; '07 Rendezvous; '05 Ram; '04 Grand Cherokee; '03 F150; '01 Silverado; '00 Jimmy; '99 Sierra; '97 Ram; '96 Mustang GT; '96 Jimmy; '90 Escort GT; '89 Ranger; '84 Omni; '76 Malibu; '78 LeMans; '85 Escort; '82 Lynx; '75 Sierra

  9. #6
    Corvette C7 AMERICA 123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    15,628
    Thanks
    7,939
    Thanked 1,574 Times in 1,093 Posts
    My Ride
    The Toyota Rat Catcher

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    Just picture the long term ramifications for a spectacular - massive fail with this 'idea'....... and then picture it in terms of GM exclusively.

    Imo, that would be the end of GM regardless if the aftermath came slow or hard and fast.

    Never live it down, and it fits too well with the negative Nancy propaganda about the past.

    And yep, the truth of it all as well.

    What a truly dumbass way the roll the dice with everything on the line.




    And then to finish it off - for what.... in net.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 06-04-2019 at 07:28 PM.
    "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression — and they're about to do it again."
    "The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."
    "If America is circling the drain, Goldman Sachs has found a way to be that drain — " Matt Taibbi

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AMERICA 123 For This Useful Post:

    1958carnut (06-04-2019),SierraGS (06-08-2019)

  11. #7
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member Neanderthal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    A sunny cave in Transylvania
    Posts
    34,029
    Thanks
    8,144
    Thanked 6,594 Times in 4,102 Posts
    My Ride
    17 Soul&/01 PT LTD/15 JD130

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    In all this "safety" talk, I have yet to hear ANYONE mention improved driver training standards and formats. IT'S THE DRIVER, STUPID!

    From Quora:
    9 Answers
    Omar Jetté
    Omar Jetté, Have been driving and repairing for 55+ years
    Answered Oct 29, 2015
    You could define best drivers by country, according to the lowest number of fatalities per 100,000 people, or the number of fatalities per 100,000 vehicles. For my answer, I am selecting the G7 industrialized countries, which have dense population centers and high car ownership. I copied this from here: List of countries by traffic-related death rate. I need to put this in as a chart, so please bear with while I get it. Edit: Please read as Per 100,000. Tx


    The Scandinavian countries fare slightly better than UK, and are very near the lowest over all, while Canada is between France and Italy. Should we be surprised that the U.S.A. is so high?
    Edit: BTW, the linked chart does not have figures for Bermuda, however there were 16 deaths for a population of about 65,000 in 2014, which would put the per capita rate at about 24/100,000. Therefore use buses, ferries & taxis while visiting, and enjoy the views!
    5.1k views · View Upvoters

    https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-be...s-in-the-world

    FNL Driving School safest-places
    21 MAY SAFEST PLACES IN THE WORLD TO DRIVE
    Posted at 18:07h in News by FNL
    0 Likes
    Share
    5 (100%) 1 vote
    Did you know that some of the safest places in the world to drive are Germany, Sweden and the United Kingdom? But what about the United States? Although the U.S does not have the worst driving safety standards, the country still has much work to do in order to make its roads safer!

    When understanding road safety, there are many factors that must be taken into consideration such as: road conditions, income levels and drivers education. The countries with lower safety standards for driving tend to be in Central America, the Northern part of South America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. The countries with higher safety standards for driving tend to be primarily in Northern Europe. These statistics point to the assumption that driving safety is often at its lowest in underdeveloped and unprogressive countries, mainly because laws, regulations and drivers education are not enforced.

    Let’s take a closer look at one of the safest places to drive in the world – Germany. Why is this particular country one of the safest places to drive? Well, driver training in Germany is much more extensive than that of many other countries, especially the United States. To obtain a basic license, you have to tackle a long process that requires the completion of registration, theory classes, special lessons, a theoretical test, a practice test and final behind the wheel exams. Do you remember spending this much time to obtain a driver’s license in the US? These extensive lessons are necessary to ensure that training includes practice on motorways, country roads and various conditions, including nighttime driving.

    This lengthy and simulated learning process helps drivers experience all types of driving conditions to gain valuable and relevant experience with an instructor, before the student driver is permitted to be out on their own. Germany also keeps the roads safe with strict rules, including rigorous vehicle inspections, mandatory third-party liability coverage and a point system that helps keeps dangerous drivers off the road. All cars are forced to carry safety and first-aid equipment and additionally must switch to snow tires in the winter. These laws are strictly enforced and drivers may receive harsh penalties if the rules of the road are not followed!

    Compared to Germany (and most countries in Europe) drivers in the United States spend significantly less money and time on driver’s education; and consequently, encounters the highest number of traffic related deaths. Learning to drive in Germany is a rather costly process. The price to obtain a license in Germany is around €1,400 to €2,000 Euros (US $1,850- $3,400), while in the United States, the average teen driver pays a total of $250 to $400 for their driver training. Although the process of obtaining a driver’s license is much more costly in Germany, people receive more training, preparation and hands on experience that results in safer roads and fewer fatalities. Driver’s education is taken very seriously because motor vehicles are not only a form of transportation, but can also be considered a weapon if inexperienced and unskilled drivers use them incorrectly.

    Most autobahns in Germany have posted speed limits and even “dynamic speed limits” that adjust to match traffic and weather conditions. However, when there is no posted speed limit, a driver may drive as fast as they wish, as long as they can maintain full control of their vehicle. But, why is speeding such a larger problem in the United States than in Germany? Well, drivers in Germany receive a large amount of experience and training under various road conditions, which gives them better control and understanding of how to manipulate their vehicle. Speeding is a large issue in the United States mainly because drivers are not trained to drive in hazardous situations at different speeds. The combination of speed and inexperience is deadly.

    The number one killer of American teens is motor vehicle crashes. Perhaps you are now asking yourself, “Hey, if the United States is such a developed country, then how do they not have the latest training techniques when it comes to driving?” Well, teenagers in most of the United States are only required to complete a written exam, a vision exam and six hours of behind the wheel training. Some states have a required number of additional practice hours that the teens must complete with a parent/guardian or experienced driver in the vehicle, but that is far from consistent and rarely enforced. Clearly, US driver’s need more training and practice, but this has not been enough of a priority.

    Experience is the solution to the growing problem of dangerous driving. Drive Safer is here to help drivers gain the skills and knowledge they need to become more developed drivers. If interested in learning more about how to stay safe behind the wheel of your own vehicle, check out one of our car control and defensive driving courses and learn important tips from high-performance driving instructors.


    https://www.fnldrivingschool.com/safest-places/
    2017 Soul &, Titanium

    Where liberty dwells, there is my country. Benjamin Franklin

    The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. Thomas Jefferson

    Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Neanderthal For This Useful Post:

    Mr.Buttons (06-05-2019),Rumpole (06-07-2019),SierraGS (06-05-2019)

  13. #8
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    St. George, Ut.
    Posts
    8,897
    Thanks
    10,901
    Thanked 2,983 Times in 1,941 Posts
    My Ride
    2016 Nissan Rogue SV AWD

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpole View Post
    This give renewed meaning to the phrase: "Over my dead body."
    Along with "Putting/Getting the cart in front of the horse." I continue to hold to my prediction that this will not end well for GM like they're supplying nails and wood for their own coffin.

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to 1958carnut For This Useful Post:

    AMERICA 123 (06-04-2019),Mr.Buttons (06-05-2019),SierraGS (06-05-2019)

  15. #9
    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 rand49er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    South Lyon, MI
    Posts
    1,860
    Thanks
    660
    Thanked 843 Times in 487 Posts

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    We've got EV's now, no?
    I say "evolving together" loosely. In the big picture, they're reasonably close in time.
    2005 CTS-V, LS6, supercharged, L-T headers, etc SOLD !!!
    2011 Cruze ECO, 1.4T, 6-spd manual. (my DD) SOLD !!!
    2012 SRX, 3.6, AWD (wife's car)
    2017 Volt Premier Iridescent Pearl Tricoat (son has taken it over)
    2016 ATS Premium 6MT (my DD)

  16. #10
    Chevrolet VOLT eaton53's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    10,527
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 3,170 Times in 1,735 Posts
    My Ride
    1989 Merkur XR4Ti

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    IMO, this is what the Bolt was actually designed to do.
    Just by looking at it, you can tell it's not intended to be a driver's car or stylish.
    It's supposed to be a drone.
    1989 Merkur XR4Ti
    2014 Carlisle Ford Nationals - Merkur Club of America Preservation Award


    2015 Cadillac XTS Platinum... Princess Buttercup IV
    2015 Chevy Cruze Diesel... Many thanks to VW for making this deal possible.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to eaton53 For This Useful Post:

    Mr.Buttons (06-05-2019)

  18. #11
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    7,751
    Thanks
    6,383
    Thanked 2,182 Times in 1,357 Posts

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    Quote Originally Posted by 1958carnut View Post
    Along with "Putting/Getting the cart in front of the horse." I continue to hold to my prediction that this will not end well for GM like they're supplying nails and wood for their own coffin.
    Absolutely.

    Just look at what happened to Hewlett Packard when they bought COMPAQ when the PC became "commoditzed" and all margins went away basically went BK.

    If you don't drive the car it becomes a faceless, emotionless tool that only sells on price, it not going to be good for GM and predict a huge increase in traffic deaths from these vehicles being hacked and systems failures with the only positive is they will be legislated off the road.

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to SierraGS For This Useful Post:

    Neanderthal (06-05-2019)

  20. #12
    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 rand49er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    South Lyon, MI
    Posts
    1,860
    Thanks
    660
    Thanked 843 Times in 487 Posts

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    Quote Originally Posted by SierraGS View Post
    ... If you don't drive the car it becomes a faceless, emotionless tool that only sells on price, it not going to be good for GM and predict a huge increase in traffic deaths from these vehicles being hacked and systems failures with the only positive is they will be legislated off the road.
    As an old guy, I drive a delivery truck three days a week, and let me tell you how many bad drivers -- I mean BAD drivers -- I see every day. Many are distracted, many are inexperienced, and many are just low IQ or something. Now, fast forward another twenty, thirty years with all the advances in "distractions," and it's going to get worse ... much worse. I don't want those people driving. No way! Let computers and software do it, and not them.
    2005 CTS-V, LS6, supercharged, L-T headers, etc SOLD !!!
    2011 Cruze ECO, 1.4T, 6-spd manual. (my DD) SOLD !!!
    2012 SRX, 3.6, AWD (wife's car)
    2017 Volt Premier Iridescent Pearl Tricoat (son has taken it over)
    2016 ATS Premium 6MT (my DD)

  21. #13
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member Neanderthal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    A sunny cave in Transylvania
    Posts
    34,029
    Thanks
    8,144
    Thanked 6,594 Times in 4,102 Posts
    My Ride
    17 Soul&/01 PT LTD/15 JD130

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er View Post
    As an old guy, I drive a delivery truck three days a week, and let me tell you how many bad drivers -- I mean BAD drivers -- I see every day. Many are distracted, many are inexperienced, and many are just low IQ or something. Now, fast forward another twenty, thirty years with all the advances in "distractions," and it's going to get worse ... much worse. I don't want those people driving. No way! Let computers and software do it, and not them.
    There's a solution. It's called DRIVER TRAINING and LICENSE STANDARDS. Which we do not have now. What we have now is a joke.
    2017 Soul &, Titanium

    Where liberty dwells, there is my country. Benjamin Franklin

    The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. Thomas Jefferson

    Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content

  22. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Neanderthal For This Useful Post:

    jzchev28 (06-08-2019),Rumpole (06-07-2019),SierraGS (06-08-2019)

  23. #14
    3.6 Liter SIDI V6 Mr.Buttons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    In my room
    Posts
    1,207
    Thanks
    1,295
    Thanked 712 Times in 413 Posts

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    This is going to be interesting to watch from the sidelines in my dumb cars.

  24. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mr.Buttons For This Useful Post:

    Ed753 (06-05-2019),Neanderthal (06-05-2019)

  25. #15
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Ed753's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    18,655
    Thanks
    12,141
    Thanked 7,865 Times in 4,683 Posts
    My Ride
    2018 GMC Sierra Crew 6 1/2'

    Re: GM Driverless Car Petition: NHTSA

    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er View Post
    I say "evolving together" loosely. In the big picture, they're reasonably close in time.
    I'm "OK" with that part; you also said............."will debut together"

    Leaf came out 10 years ago; AV isn't here yet, and who knows when...............

    In the big scheme of thing, as slow as EV is going, they could very-well "evolve together" but not "debut".
    Current: Hidden Content Hidden Content

    Past: '17 Cruze; '15 F150; '14 Volt; '13 MKX; '13 Silverado; '13 Fusion; '11 Ram; '10 Commander; '08 Sierra; '07 Rendezvous; '05 Ram; '04 Grand Cherokee; '03 F150; '01 Silverado; '00 Jimmy; '99 Sierra; '97 Ram; '96 Mustang GT; '96 Jimmy; '90 Escort GT; '89 Ranger; '84 Omni; '76 Malibu; '78 LeMans; '85 Escort; '82 Lynx; '75 Sierra

  26. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.1.2