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GM CEO: Yes To Electric Vehicles - No To Hybrids

7K views 96 replies 42 participants last post by  gkr778 
#1 ·
Bloomberg.com
November 22, 2019

If General Motors Chief Executive Officer Mary Barra had her way, the auto industry would forget about selling hybrid electric-models and instead concentrate on getting more battery-powered vehicles into showrooms.

At an auto industry conference held by Barclays in New York on Thursday, Barra said GM is pushing ahead with a plan to sell 20 electric vehicles by 2023 and doesn’t want to build hybrids like Toyota Motor Co.’s Prius model, which pioneered the category more than 20 years ago in Japan.

“Customers aren’t interested in hybrids,” Barra said.









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#59 ·
BEV's are vehicles Americans (or at least the people on this blog - 1) are not willing to buy--the rest of the world do not really care what it is. Last I checked, there's 7.5B people in the world of which 0.33B live in the US. Assuming the global ratio of drivers in the world is the same, that means that most of the GM's future investment is towards competing against the 96% of future potential consumers--leaving the 4% left in the wallowing in their...black "gold".

If I'm a person of plenty looking to invest my money into a company competing in a product-set only 4% of the world will buy while its competitors work on winning the remaining 96%--I'd walk away. Mary's got a point.
 
#72 ·
as for the PHEV

hybrids are NOW selling because they are almost "free" options on a LOT of Toyota's and FORD products where as a BEV is a BIG cost + option

BUT look to the Tesla model S where it has cost parity to comparable cars and HAS SOLD VERY WELL for its class
I believe once we get near cost parity on BEV's to ICE we will see sales take off
the PHEV will NEVER reach cost parity with ICE OR BEV solutions because you NEED both a FULL ICE + a FULL BEV solution included - and THAT is the PROBLEM WITH VOLTEC that NOTHING will overcome
 
#75 ·
as for the PHEV

hybrids are NOW selling because they are almost "free" options on a LOT of Toyota's and FORD products where as a BEV is a BIG cost + option.
That is irrelevant; are they doing so profitably is the question.


BUT look to the Tesla model S where it has cost parity to comparable cars and HAS SOLD VERY WELL for its class
That is fools gold; that would be like looking at a high-priced BMW or M-B and saying "They make a lot of money on that, lets make one of those!"
- It doesn't work that way; Tesla can't even keep it going, the much cheaper Model 3 has almost eliminated Model S sales.


I believe once we get near cost parity on BEV's to ICE we will see sales take off
Which is when? If BEV get cheaper, don't PHEV also get cheaper?


The PHEV will NEVER reach cost parity with ICE OR BEV solutions because you NEED both a FULL ICE + a FULL BEV solution included - and THAT is the PROBLEM WITH VOLTEC that NOTHING will overcome
I don't know what the costs of a current Bolt EV battery is, lets say $10,000 and the Volt battery is then $5,000 because it is ~half as big.

If the Bolt goes to $5,000 doesn't the Volt battery then go to $2,500?

The pay-back for both EV's and PHEV's is in fuel savings, with battery cost decreases being the magic bullet, there are compromises no matter which way we look at it, but Voltec gives us flexibility and options that simple aren't obtainable in a ICE or EV.
 
#76 ·
Have they been following pure EV sales? (Currently Jaguar I-Pace inventory exceeds 6 months). The reality seems to be that the success of Tesla is unique; they have created a highly successful brand. It appears that what consumers really want are not necessarily Electric Vehicles, (The Bolt isn't that well compared to the Model 3), consumers with expensive tastes really only want the Tesla brand.

Discontinuing their only hybrid?

Back when I owned a Volt, we guys in the Volt owner’s forum begged for GM to use the Volt power-train in an SUV. Of course they never did. Meanwhile Toyota and Honda are enjoying growing success with their Hybrid SUV’s, so much so that even Ford is now offering an attractive new Hybrid option, the new Escape. (And so will Lincoln). I think this Hybrid SUV market will continue to grow as customers finally learn that these vehicles are sort of “Self Charging EV’s” (As they are marketing them in Europe). They have all the advantages of EV’s without all of the disadvantages.

The car buying public are very slow to change, they are just now starting to realize that hybrids are a good, desirable thing. And now that hybrids actually drive the same or better that gas models (Think the newly announced Rav4 PRIME Hybrid), sales will continue to grow. Meanwhile GM will be sitting with no hybrids of any kind – only expensive EV’s which few customers will actually be buying?).
 
#77 ·
Wait until 2022 to see the 20 new full EVs built on the new central backbone platform of the c8 expanded to create GMs new lineup of 20 new Evs before declaring GM CEO dumber than a box of rocks.

No longer tied to unit body construction the new EV platform will be fully scalable (sp) length and wode wise and built in one factory making that factory fully flexible.

Imagine the bedford plates in the c8 as batterypacks ...with the central backbone flattened.

This is a masterpiece of design with battery filled bedford plates ised to power electric motors to the front, the rear or awd drive systems of future models predominantly cuvs.

Styling or top hats can be changed quite frequently on a platform as so described. The underlying structure does not have to be fully reengineered ...this is low cost and a stroke of genius.

GM will be revolutionizing the industry with its revolutionary chassis and powertrain design...with its flexibility,low cost and widespread use capability throughout the gm lineup.

Remember thos post in 2022 as the vehicles roll off GM production facilities.

The unions are aware of whats coming as well.
 
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#81 ·
Where I live, if one has a way to keep the batter charged, a BEV makes plenty of sense. I like the way the Prius I now drive gets me to school in Chesapeake and back on one gallon of gas (50 mile round trip). Unless you live in California, and I really mean somewhere around either San Francisco or Los Angeles, fuel cell vehicles are pretty much useless with a essentially non-existent fueling infrastructure.

While you've been discussing hybrids, you've all ignored the very good system that was on offer in the current generation Malibu. I have taken one for a test drive, it offered decent power and great fuel economy, at least equal to anything I'd encountered in a Fusion hybrid, and I closed in on 50 mpg the last time I drove a Fusion Hybrid. That system could or should have been offered in other GM models (Impala, XTS, LaCrosse), if GM were interested in competing in this field. I never tend to think of crossovers, but it would have been a great addition to the Equinox and Terrain as well.
 
#83 ·
Where I live, if one has a way to keep the batter charged, a BEV makes plenty of sense. I like the way the Prius I now drive gets me to school in Chesapeake and back on one gallon of gas (50 mile round trip). Unless you live in California, and I really mean somewhere around either San Francisco or Los Angeles, fuel cell vehicles are pretty much useless with a essentially non-existent fueling infrastructure.

While you've been discussing hybrids, you've all ignored the very good system that was on offer in the current generation Malibu. I have taken one for a test drive, it offered decent power and great fuel economy, at least equal to anything I'd encountered in a Fusion hybrid, and I closed in on 50 mpg the last time I drove a Fusion Hybrid. That system could or should have been offered in other GM models (Impala, XTS, LaCrosse), if GM were interested in competing in this field. I never tend to think of crossovers, but it would have been a great addition to the Equinox and Terrain as well.
Pretty amazing how GM fails to capitalize, again and again, on great stuff they have. Is this due to serial incompetence or internal sabotage?

Meanwhile, 10,000 layoffs at Benz and 7500 at Audi due apparently to electric vehicle development. This electric s**t costs serious money.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50598673

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/26/business/audi-job-cuts/index.html
The Amazing Greta Electric Car! is being pushed by faceless, and typically brainless, bureaucrats, not the market and not science. The carbon hucksters are shoving electrics down the Euro throats, ours too only more slowly thanks to you-know-who, and when this doesn't work out as the central planning geniuses predict--as usual--it's the capitalists, not the socialist central planners who live off the fat of the land, who will pay the price.

Electrics are fine. Self-drivers are fine. Hybrids are fine. Let the market decide unless you want a big freakin chemical fire of unintended consequences that the pointy-heads are incapable of visualizing.
 
#82 ·
#84 ·
Hate to break it to GM, but Hybrids are selling very well (at least for Toyota YTD Oct. 2019).

October 2019 Highlights: Hybrid sales up 57.1 percent; Toyota division hybrid sales up 62.0 percent and Lexus division up 33.0 percent

Let's look at who is really winning in the market

Bolt (Q3 & Sept '19) 4,830 (3 Months of Sales) 13,111 (YTD Sept 2019) +22.30% Q3 +11.00% YTD Sept 2019
RAV4 Hybrid 9,460 (1 Month of Sales Oct 2019) 72,341 (YTD Oct 2019) +137.30% (Oct. 2019) +76.50% YTD Oct 2019
Highlander Hybrid 1,556 (1 Month of Sales Oct 2019) 14,633 (YTD Oct 2019) +66.20% (Oct. 2019) +23.10% YTD Oct 2019

Price premium ICE vs Hybrid
2020 RAV4 LE FWD $26,970 2,250 Less than Hybrid*
2020 RAV4 LE AWD $28,370 850 Less than Hybrid
2020 RAV4 LE Hybrid $29,220 *Includes Alloys/Dual Zone + AWD over FWD

Recently introduced (LA Auto Show) Plug in RAV4 Hybrid
2021 RAV4 Prime 39 Mile Range 40 MPG 5.8S 0-60.

Real problem is the flawed Climate Change/Carbon Emission focus that too many get stuck on.

IMHO both Climate Change and total focus on Carbon (CO2) Emissions are Wrong and are keeping far too many viable answers to the "Real Problems" of Reducing Fossil Fuel Use and Overall Emissions (Air/Water/Land).

Remove the Climate Change and total focus on Carbon (CO2) Emissions and we could have made major strides in Reducing Fossil Fuel Use and Overall Emissions (Air/Water/Land) over the last 20 years (an entire Generation!!!), since there have been many viable answers to these problems that have been ignored and not implemented. This has resulted in untold Environmental Damage to the Earth's (Air/Water/Land) and where is the accountability for wasting 20 years on the wrong problems?????

Everyone wants to Reduce Fossil Fuel Use and Overall Emissions (Air/Water/Land) - I know that will shock many, who think that they are the only ones who care, but that too is very wrong, short sighted and arrogant.

Time to wake up and start using the real answers that have existed for decades.

There are also many new technologies that provide new answers, technologies like Fuel Cells that run on CNG, Gasoline and even Diesel Fuel instead of yet another Wrong Answer - Hydrogen Fuel Cells. Hydrogen Fuel Cells are more efficient, but not by enough to offset the energy required to produce the Hydrogen (not to mention most of it is produced by Natural Gas that is still required for it's production) - anyone notice a problem here??? And I am not even going to go into the lack of Infrastructure and other problems of storage/safety.

BTW these NG Fuel Cells can be used to augment Residential Solar Power Systems better than Batteries and residual heat used for heating residential water.

Bottom line is that there are far too many better ways to power vehicles while Reducing Fossil Fuel Use and Overall Emissions (Air/Water/Land) than BEV's and it is about time we started to focus on them.
 
#85 ·
Hate to break it to GM, but Hybrids are selling very well (at least for Toyota YTD Oct. 2019).

October 2019 Highlights: Hybrid sales up 57.1 percent; Toyota division hybrid sales up 62.0 percent and Lexus division up 33.0 percent

Let's look at who is really winning in the market

Bolt (Q3 & Sept '19) 4,830 (3 Months of Sales) 13,111 (YTD Sept 2019) +22.30% Q3 +11.00% YTD Sept 2019
RAV4 Hybrid 9,460 (1 Month of Sales Oct 2019) 72,341 (YTD Oct 2019) +137.30% (Oct. 2019) +76.50% YTD Oct 2019
Highlander Hybrid 1,556 (1 Month of Sales Oct 2019) 14,633 (YTD Oct 2019) +66.20% (Oct. 2019) +23.10% YTD Oct 2019

Price premium ICE vs Hybrid
2020 RAV4 LE FWD $26,970 2,250 Less than Hybrid*
2020 RAV4 LE AWD $28,370 850 Less than Hybrid
2020 RAV4 LE Hybrid $29,220 *Includes Alloys/Dual Zone + AWD over FWD

Recently introduced (LA Auto Show) Plug in RAV4 Hybrid
2021 RAV4 Prime 39 Mile Range 40 MPG 5.8S 0-60.

Real problem is the flawed Climate Change/Carbon Emission focus that too many get stuck on.

IMHO both Climate Change and total focus on Carbon (CO2) Emissions are Wrong and are keeping far too many viable answers to the "Real Problems" of Reducing Fossil Fuel Use and Overall Emissions (Air/Water/Land).

Remove the Climate Change and total focus on Carbon (CO2) Emissions and we could have made major strides in Reducing Fossil Fuel Use and Overall Emissions (Air/Water/Land) over the last 20 years (an entire Generation!!!), since there have been many viable answers to these problems that have been ignored and not implemented. This has resulted in untold Environmental Damage to the Earth's (Air/Water/Land) and where is the accountability for wasting 20 years on the wrong problems?????

Everyone wants to Reduce Fossil Fuel Use and Overall Emissions (Air/Water/Land) - I know that will shock many, who think that they are the only ones who care, but that too is very wrong, short sighted and arrogant.

Time to wake up and start using the real answers that have existed for decades.

There are also many new technologies that provide new answers, technologies like Fuel Cells that run on CNG, Gasoline and even Diesel Fuel instead of yet another Wrong Answer - Hydrogen Fuel Cells. Hydrogen Fuel Cells are more efficient, but not by enough to offset the energy required to produce the Hydrogen (not to mention most of it is produced by Natural Gas that is still required for it's production) - anyone notice a problem here??? And I am not even going to go into the lack of Infrastructure and other problems of storage/safety.

BTW these NG Fuel Cells can be used to augment Residential Solar Power Systems better than Batteries and residual heat used for heating residential water.

Bottom line is that there are far too many better ways to power vehicles while Reducing Fossil Fuel Use and Overall Emissions (Air/Water/Land) than BEV's and it is about time we started to focus on them.
Why is reducing "fossil fuel" use important? Coal and oil made Western Civilization possible and prosperous. Look at how much crud wood smoke produces.

You replace one pollutant with another worse pollutant (heavy metals, slave mining conditions, enabling the rise of a totalitarian power, this is more than tailpipe emissions) charging blindly into "reduce emissions" you get many unintended and often disastrous consequences.

The market is the best decisionator.
 
#95 ·
#96 ·
Thanks dannyg! Extending the time period to the first eleven months of 2019, Toyota Motor Sales USA (TMNA) hybrid vehicle sales are up 26.6% YTD, compared to a decline of 1.7% for all Toyota & Lexus vehicles overall in the U.S. in the same period.

A similar market dynamic is playing out at American Honda: sales of Honda's electrified vehicles* are up 25.2% YTD, compared with an increase of only 1.5% for all Honda & Acura vehicles overall.

*includes hybrids (including PHEV), FCEV, and BEV. The Clarity BEV and FCEV models, which are only available in California and Oregon, comprised less than 2% of American Honda's electrified vehicle sales YTD. Hybrids were over 98%.
 
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