Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains - Page 18

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Thread: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

  1. #256
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscuro View Post
    No they don't. A vast majority of Benz's 29,000 sales last month were the 16K lower models from the C, CLA, GLA, and GLC. Two of those segments Cadillac doesn't even sell in (CLA, GLA). The E-Class sedan is most likely selling CTS numbers as I don't know if anyone was paying attention but they have combined its numbers with the CLS now. I'm not counting the fact that those 3700 E-Class/CLS sales include the convertible and coupe. To things the CTS doesn't have. There is a reason why the Cadillac average transaction price is one of the highest in the segment, and it isn't just the Escalade either. Cadillac is selling higher-end models of what they have to people who wnat bells and whistles. Benz is selling a bunch of bottom feeder stuff that gets a customer into a Benz
    Forgot a comma, Mercedes sells big volume, and they sell expensive. You're new here so maybe you missed the GLC / RX / MKX (+ XT5 without a full test) roadtest by MotorTrend last month. The significantly smaller GTC got lumped in with these other larger CUVs for some reason, and stickered for 60 grand (within 5 bucks of the RX, and around 4 grand less than the XT5 and MKX). Smaller vehicle for same or almost same money, Mercedes has pricing power. The big difference is they're playing a class lower than Cadillac today with the CLA and GLA, like you say, but Cadillac is getting into those segments in a few years, because there's money to be had in them there 30 grand MSRP luxury vehicles...

    And of course Escalade is a huge part of Cadillac ATP, not that there's anything wrong with that. Good for them for selling tons of 70k+ SUVs, they own that market.

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  3. #257
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscuro View Post
    Well they are the newest offerings, meaning most indicative of the direction the brand is going. I read that the ATS is getting a few flaws ironed out, namely the gauges for 2017. Then it is the oldest vehicle in their line-up I think. Or is it the XTS? The CTS is already stellar and looks fetching.
    XTS is much older, but holding its own quite well (given its age), especially in China. It will be interesting to see if XTS drivers graduate to CT6, as much as people pretend to hate traditional Cadillac buyers, they have to buy something, so hopefully it's a new, more expensive Cadillac.
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by paul8488 View Post
    XTS is much older, but holding its own quite well (given its age), especially in China. It will be interesting to see if XTS drivers graduate to CT6, as much as people pretend to hate traditional Cadillac buyers, they have to buy something, so hopefully it's a new, more expensive Cadillac.
    XTS is not much older than the ATS when both came out in '12 with the XTS first in late spring before the ATS in late Summer.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by jamiepeterson2 View Post
    Cadillac redesigned several models to make them more appealing to younger customers, but the primary buyer continues to be older men. Unfortunately younger buyers tend to have lower incomes than the older men who currently prefer Mercedes or BMW. This means Cadillac is in a bit of a bind: their customers are loyal (60% would buy another Cadillac), but they are aging. 60% who purchase the Cadillac XTS are 65 or older. Sooner or later Cadillac must pursue new demographics because their primary customer base will no longer be around.
    You should had posted this back in 1997.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamiepeterson2 View Post
    In order for Cadillac to alter their demographic profile, they must do two things: lower the cost of a vehicle so that it isn’t equal to a full year’s wages and target those who have a graduate degree.

    Average selling price of a new Cadillac ranges from $46,000 to $54,000. Median earnings for young adults with a bachelor’s degree is $48,500. The average salary of a 25-34 year old worker with a master’s degree is about $59,600.
    People currently making that type of income can't afford any luxury car so I don't know what your point is? An average household to own a nicely equipped ATS, for example, (not totally optioned out) is a little over $100K.
    Last edited by johnls_39; 06-08-2016 at 01:36 PM.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by johnls_39 View Post
    You should had posted this back in 1997.

    People currently making that type of income can't afford any luxury car so I don't know what your point is? An average household to own a nicely equipped ATS, for example, (not totally optioned out) is a little over $100K.
    Precisely. So why is JdN chasing the dollar that isn't there? His strategy needs a little more refining.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    I wonder how much longer Art & Science will be around for ??

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscuro View Post
    I took a gander at the new XT5 and CT6 the other day. What I found were two vehicle that can sit proudly next to the Escalade, CTS, XTS-Platinum VSport (specifically) and dearly departing ELR. What I also found was that if an owner of any were to sit any of these vehicles next to the Mercedes Benz GLC, S550, GLS, CLS, or E-Class, compare the corresponding models, they would find that in many areas the Cadillacs were not only on par, but better in terms of workmanship, engineering, and even UI (the new CUE is so much better).
    Lolz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscuro View Post
    The idea of price is irrelevant in real luxury.
    Price is relevant for all Cadillacs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscuro View Post
    The E-Class sedan is most likely selling CTS numbers as I don't know if anyone was paying attention but they have combined its numbers with the CLS now.
    No, EXCLUDING CLS, E-Class outsold CTS 3-1 last month. As you can see, they are broken out:

    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/06...-2016-ytd.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscuro View Post
    There is a reason why the Cadillac average transaction price is one of the highest in the segment, and it isn't just the Escalade either. Cadillac is selling higher-end models of what they have to people who wnat bells and whistles. Benz is selling a bunch of bottom feeder stuff that gets a into a Benz
    There is no denying Escalade plays a huge part in Cadillacs ATP.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul8488 View Post
    Forgot a comma, Mercedes sells big volume, and they sell expensive.
    Of course they do. To deny that is denying reality. S-Klasse, G-Wagen, GLS, and SL say "Hi".

    Quote Originally Posted by paul8488 View Post
    And of course Escalade is a huge part of Cadillac ATP, not that there's anything wrong with that. Good for them for selling tons of 70k+ SUVs, they own that market.
    We all know that, remove those sales and ATP would plummet. And there is nothing wrong with the successs of the Escalade, its kept Caddy afloat for a long time. Escalade is arguably the only "true" Cadillac in their lineup, because of that it is arguably the most successful.
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscuro View Post
    To people who talk about the backseat volume. I think the though is a bit overblown considering the specs:

    CTS has 35.4 inches in REAR leg room- 5Series has 35.3
    CTS has 45.7 inches more FRONT room- 5Series has 41.4

    any tightness in the Cadillac, versus the BMW, would be confined to the middle seat rider as the Alpha platform is simply more narrow by about two inches.

    To pricing. Cadillac is doing an excellent job in weeding out value shoppers from actual luxury ones. Yes it costs a sale, but it also marries future buyers to an idea that luxury costs again at Cadillac. The Generation one and two of the CTS was a tweener selling value over the luxury. It showed if you sweated the details. Now the current CTS is quite possibly the best vehicle in its class, sans, again, the backseat. I am not just talking performance and handling, but interior materials, engine refinement, and luxurious rigor. The sales drop would be indicative of a price increase and a lack of available models. Both of which I believe the current CTS currently boasts. Even if one couples the CTS and ATS they will find that the available choices of the two are still not on par with what the 2008-2013 CTS offered.

    I took a gander at the new XT5 and CT6 the other day. What I found were two vehicle that can sit proudly next to the Escalade, CTS, XTS-Platinum VSport (specifically) and dearly departing ELR. What I also found was that if an owner of any were to sit any of these vehicles next to the Mercedes Benz GLC, S550, GLS, CLS, or E-Class, compare the corresponding models, they would find that in many areas the Cadillacs were not only on par, but better in terms of workmanship, engineering, and even UI (the new CUE is so much better). Sales wise? Look up and you will see a glaring reason why Mercedes sold 17,000 more vehicles last month than Cadillac. I listed almost Cadillac's entire current vehicle portfolio (left out the ATS) while only listing 5 of 20 different Benzes.

    The idea of price is irrelevant in real luxury. Sales being equated to luxury, or rather desirability being equated to sales must also be coupled to available choices
    Quote Originally Posted by johnls_39 View Post
    ^Post for the day!
    Regarding tightness, no. It's the non-bitch passengers who get the worst of that 2" width problem and you're not taking real life into account.

    Sit in a 5. Sit in a CTS. CTS is cramped if you're a normal-sized male.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul8488 View Post
    Mercedes sells big volume AND expensive. So does BMW. And Lexus. And Audi. There's a happy medium to be struck, for sure, but the fall of the Alpha cars is not healthy, and wasn't planned. It'll take a generation to correct that, but I hope that GM is looking harder at the reasons than GMi Cadillac fans, who tend to shrug it off.
    That's a pretty unfair assessment, speed racer.

    Alpha cars suck, and almost categorically outside of ONLY chassis dynamics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscuro View Post
    Well they are the newest offerings, meaning most indicative of the direction the brand is going. I read that the ATS is getting a few flaws ironed out, namely the gauges for 2017. Then it is the oldest vehicle in their line-up I think. Or is it the XTS? The CTS is already stellar and looks fetching.




    Cadillac currently has one vehicle in the low $30,000 range. The XT5's price knocks on the door of $40,000 in base according to the website. So still two in the $30,000-40,000 range. Mercedes has double that at least, two in the best selling and hottest segment. Also it is my belief that even with the added sub-ATS and sub XT5, we still won;t be seeing a sub $33,000 Cadillac.
    XTS is the oldest. When we get CT2, I expect ATS sales to tank (kek), and dramatically. Also expect it to be sub-$30k, as in mid-20s.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    The CTS is a spectacular automobile. It's just priced and positioned poorly.
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Saw two CT6s and two XT5s today, they were badged with 'Shanghai International Film & TV Festival' stickers and labelled as 'VIP Service' vehicles. They both look sharp, there's no mystery why they're off to a good start only two months in. These could go a long way to forgiving the sins of the ATS and CTS, but will also drive those two further over the edge. Still, better to see the new models take a step in the right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesda View Post
    The CTS is a spectacular automobile. It's just priced and positioned poorly.
    Explain this please. The price is about $3500 less than the 5series. Position is based on size and appointments. They are spot on besides the 2 inch width difference. How much should a CTS all for in 2016 considering it betters or equals the 5 in every way except rear seat room? I will again remind us that it betters the 5 in front seat room.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by CJH View Post
    Lolz.



    Price is relevant for all Cadillacs.


    There is no denying Escalade plays a huge part in Cadillacs ATP.


    We all know that, remove those sales and ATP would plummet. And there is nothing wrong with the successs of the Escalade, its kept Caddy afloat for a long time. Escalade is arguably the only "true" Cadillac in their lineup, because of that it is arguably the most successful.
    There is also no denying that the changes, all the many smaller type of changes Cadillac has made with regard to well, everything from unbundling and rejiggering the build sheets to Dealer payouts and joint Inventory improvements has paid off in a series of strong and seemingly damn near continuous ( after the glut was cleared ) ATP improvements for non Escalade profit.

    This huge pile of improvement - from all that JdN and Team have put into place seems to be the main Spin Denial item.

    Plus the humongous improvements in China ATP that Chinese sourcing provides and now, just now, the enhancements XT 5 / CT 6 volume add to the mix.

    Yep, those two just crossed the line for that, Globally.

    That junk about Escalade is it for ATP never ever was right - we've even had the math proved out as false here @ GMI.

    Just an old, worse than useless, and false GMI anti GM / Pump Ford Spin Doc talking point meant to drown out what JdN himself has been sayin' for quite a while now is all. Now fully obsoleted / dis proven in yet another round of Sales.


    You know, there is a reason Lincoln never states a number for any of their ATP......just the occasional improvement amount which does not mean **** if you do not know what the base number plus the improvement comes to.

    If there is one thing Cadillac is incontrovertibly doing well as we speak - it is ATPs net of Consumer Incentives, with or without Escalade and not just here in the USA.

    Don't even see a matchstick in hell of a chance for Lincoln five Years into the Future coming anywhere near Cadillac's ATPs of today.

    Or last Year's and maybe even further back than that.

    Plus we do not know if Lincoln and Ford Motor Credit are doing some things that will have extra costs down the road - not experienced or booked as yet, which Cadillac is definitely not subject to.

    The attempts to claw them back by the Spin Docs will never cease; but reality is.... Cadillac just cleared the runway.

    Lincoln on the other hand, just got on the far taxiway from the Gen Av area........ with Volvo, Jaguar and LR in front ( oh dearie me ) with an undetermined Status and Clearance.
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscuro View Post
    Explain this please. The price is about $3500 less than the 5series. Position is based on size and appointments. They are spot on besides the 2 inch width difference. How much should a CTS all for in 2016 considering it betters or equals the 5 in every way except rear seat room? I will again remind us that it betters the 5 in front seat room.
    Because Cadillac's image isn't on par with its competitors, the pricing is out of line with its place in the market.
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesda View Post
    Too much? If anything, current Cadillac sedans are too muted. Meanwhile, the bold and brutal Escalade continues to print money.

    Escalade is like a different brand. Bling has always worked well there (even if it's just a toothy sort of grille on a refined-looking Suburban); even different clientele in many cases. Cadillac have been unable to transfer the formula to the rest of the lineup, but it's as if they gave it a half-hearted shot in which there's an abundance of styling (in and out) in some respects, and a blandness elsewhere. Lack of balance, perhaps. It's puzzling, really. But I know that I look at Audis and even the newer Benzes and see something preferable to Cadillac, despite Cadillac's superb tech specs and wanting to be partial to something American.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Plunge as Lincoln Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by desmo9 View Post
    Escalade is like a different brand. Bling has always worked well there (even if it's just a toothy sort of grille on a refined-looking Suburban); even different clientele in many cases. Cadillac have been unable to transfer the formula to the rest of the lineup, but it's as if they gave it a half-hearted shot in which there's an abundance of styling (in and out) in some respects, and a blandness elsewhere. Lack of balance, perhaps. It's puzzling, really. But I know that I look at Audis and even the newer Benzes and see something preferable to Cadillac, despite Cadillac's superb tech specs and wanting to be partial to something American.
    People buy an Escalade because it's an Escalade, not because it's a Cadillac.
    It is a different brand with different customers, even though it's just a rebadged Tahoe.

    It's an automotive anomoly for sure.

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