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Bob Lutz on Design: GM vs. Ford

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#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Excerpt from Bob Lutz interview in Autonews.com (Subscription needed)…

Bob Lutz on Ford, GM, Carlos Ghosn, powerful execs and the future
Richard Truett
June 23, 2019
autonews.com

It's been awhile since we've spoken with Bob Lutz, the product development whiz who changed the fortunes of virtually every automaker he's worked for BMW, Ford, Chrysler, General Motorsh; in a nearly six-decade career.

We recently caught up with Lutz, 87, who is not quite retired. His VLF Automotive operation north of Detroit is looking for its next product after the Corvette-powered Destino performance luxury car wrapped up production this year.

We peppered the former Marine lieutenant with rapid-fire questions on the topics that are roiling the auto industry in 2019 and only lightly edited his answers. If you know Lutz, you know he's going to say exactly what he thinks, even if it rankles his friends and former colleagues. So buckle up: This will be a bumpy ride.

"I am saying this for the first time in my career: I think Ford has an exquisite handle on design right now. You could first see it in the 2013 Fusion and the Lincoln version. The Mustang clearly out-designed the new-generation Camaro, and sales are showing it. The Lincoln crossovers were very well executed. The Lincoln Corsair is going to be very good. The Aviator is off the charts in every respect.

But that's what you do if you want to gain market share and win against the competition. You don't go for barely competitive and what can we get away with? You go out to kill with the interior. That's where a few hundred bucks can buy you thousands of dollars' worth of perceived value.
Ford is clearly on a roll when it comes to design. GM is used to being the design leader in the United States. Arguably a few years ago, it was true. But GM needs to pull it out. Ford is doing a great job, without a question".
He also has some pointed comments about the current Silverado.
 
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#2 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

Ouch; that left a mark......................

"You don't go for barely competitive and what can we get away with? You go out to kill with the interior. That's where a few hundred bucks can buy you thousands of dollars' worth of perceived value."


And if that wasn't pointed enough.................

"GM is used to being the design leader in the United States. Arguably a few years ago, it was true. But GM needs to pull it out."

When he says "pull it out" what exactly is he implying? :eek:


Here is the link: https://www.autonews.com/executives/bob-lutz-ford-gm-carlos-ghosn-powerful-execs-and-future

Usually you can see an article or two before they block you out.
 
#5 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

Ouch; that left a mark......................

"You don't go for barely competitive and what can we get away with? You go out to kill with the interior. That's where a few hundred bucks can buy you thousands of dollars' worth of perceived value."


And if that wasn't pointed enough.................

"GM is used to being the design leader in the United States. Arguably a few years ago, it was true. But GM needs to pull it out."

When he says "pull it out" what exactly is he implying? :eek:


Here is the link: https://www.autonews.com/executives/bob-lutz-ford-gm-carlos-ghosn-powerful-execs-and-future

Usually you can see an article or two before they block you out.
Blocked me out. Subscription required on the first try. I went to the Homepage and it also has in different print next to the title, those same words Subscription Required.
 
#3 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

.......................................He also has some pointed comments about the current Silverado.
This part?..........................


On Fiat Chrysler Automobiles' Ram outselling the Chevrolet Silverado:

I think the [Chevrolet] product could have been better. Ram has a drop-dead gorgeous interior. During my nine years at GM, I thought I cured them of the tendency to take cost out of the interior and convinced them the interior is where you put the money, where the customer can see and feel and touch.

I have no doubt the Silverado is a great truck, but it disappointed people in some respects. It doesn't have the visual impact of the new Ram or the F-150, and there is a uniformity of opinion that the interior is highly disappointing. I consider this a mistake that didn't have to happen.

I tried to convince GM that the interior is where the buyer spends the ownership period, not the outside. It's extremely important. If you look at the quality of the interiors Ford and Ram are putting into their large vehicles now, I cannot believe that GM is trying to get away with these low-cost interiors, similar to what they were doing before I got there.

On the other hand, GM maintains that Ram is heavily outspending them and buying market share. I am not close enough to the numbers to verify whether that is true or not. But the fact that the Chevy Silverado is in third place and is hard to sell worries me greatly.
 
#4 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

This part?..........................


On Fiat Chrysler Automobiles' Ram outselling the Chevrolet Silverado:

I think the [Chevrolet] product could have been better. Ram has a drop-dead gorgeous interior. During my nine years at GM, I thought I cured them of the tendency to take cost out of the interior and convinced them the interior is where you put the money, where the customer can see and feel and touch.

I have no doubt the Silverado is a great truck, but it disappointed people in some respects. It doesn't have the visual impact of the new Ram or the F-150, and there is a uniformity of opinion that the interior is highly disappointing. I consider this a mistake that didn't have to happen.

I tried to convince GM that the interior is where the buyer spends the ownership period, not the outside. It's extremely important. If you look at the quality of the interiors Ford and Ram are putting into their large vehicles now, I cannot believe that GM is trying to get away with these low-cost interiors, similar to what they were doing before I got there.

On the other hand, GM maintains that Ram is heavily outspending them and buying market share. I am not close enough to the numbers to verify whether that is true or not. But the fact that the Chevy Silverado is in third place and is hard to sell worries me greatly.
Pretty much sums it up.

I could tell in 2009 when talking to GM's management there was this underlying attitude that GM only had to go back to what they were doing pre-BK and GM would be OK.

They were clueless to the reality that outside economic forces had nothing to do with GM going BK, it was all self inflicted bad decisions and the idea that cutting costs creates profits.

WRONG!

Designing and producing superior products within a reasonable cost structure does, and if you have the right strategy of what vehicles need to be on what platform, powered by the correct powertrains and equipped with the required equipment in an attractive package (inside and out), is how you succeed. Bob had them on that track, buy GM thought they knew better - they didn't and don't - GM is only good at going BK.

At this point GM must do a massive "Top Down" overhaul and need an outside management team that has a clue on how to achieve the proper strategy that prioritizes understanding markets and delivering what they will actually buy over "agendas" and "blind cost cutting". Doubt that will happen so we all know where GM is headed, just a matter of time.
 
#6 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

You go out to kill with the interior.
This is one reason I like the the ELR so much. They pulled no punches on the interior.
It is as high quality as anything out there. There's nothing cheap about it.
Voltec and great styling help too. Even the rare '16's are $30K now.

Of course, it didn't help with sales. Even a great interior can't make up for a price point that's WAY too high.
 
#8 ·
You go out to kill with the interior.
This is one reason I like the the ELR so much. They pulled no punches on the interior.
It is as high quality as anything out there. There's nothing cheap about it.
Voltec and great styling help too. Even the rare '16's are $30K now.

Of course, it didn't help with sales. Even a great interior can't make up for a price point that's WAY too high.
true and no matter how good the car may have been, buyers just wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole. ELR was a mistake made to cover an even bigger mistake, the Vollt. Volt was originally intended as a BEV but then Lutz knew the board didn’t want another EV1, so he authorised more money to add the range extender gas engine. And so was born a PHEV that cost twice as much to develop as the competitions hybrid and PHEVs
 
#11 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

Damn, he's a Ford fanboi too?...
GM needs to step it up. However, the difference is he offers a balanced approach to his criticism (he's said positive things in the past regarding GM) vs. taking outright glee when GM does poorly and only commenting on the bad stuff.

I do agree that GM needs to step it up. Though I liked the high end interior on GM's trucks, these are $60k+ vehicles and need to have interior options that can hang with the Germans. Trucks are no longer vehicles for working, they are luxury vehicles, they are daily commuters, they are statements - they are taking over the "toy" spot that sports cars used to be (toys to make a statement and have fun in).

And that goes for everything. GM is keeping the Malibu, they need to make it the best damn midsized car out there, including the interior. That can make it a growth segment for GM even though the overall segment is declining.

And this is all from someone that I know many of you think I am to blinded by GM fanboi-ism to see.
 
#14 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

It has to be said, Reuss and Mother are in over their heads
I was quite impressed with Mary at first. Her handling of the ignition switch fiasco was exemplary. Since then, not so much. It's gotten to the point that I think she is a GM lifer who has many of Old GM's habits and will eventually destroy the company. It will be very interesting to see what shape GM will be in 10,15,20 years.
 
#19 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

You mean there are other people that think you should like how your vehicle LOOKS????? Both, outside and INSIDE????? Color me shocked! I thought you had to select and purchase your vehicle based off the badge on the front of it and nothing else, the interior you stare at 100% of the time while you're driving shouldn't matter I thought!

Color me shocked! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

:lmao:
 
#20 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

You mean there are other people that think you should like how your vehicle LOOKS????? Both, outside and INSIDE????? Color me shocked! I thought you had to select and purchase your vehicle based off the badge on the front of it and nothing else, the interior you stare at 100% of the time while you're driving shouldn't matter I thought!

Color me shocked! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

:lmao:
What's the problem?

You will just buy what we make and like it..

We are GM we know everything.

Or not...

Maybe somebody should tell GM there are other Automakers out there that also make vehicles.
 
#31 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

I agree and disagree with Lutz (I love Lutz - miss him).

Bob is 100% right on Camaro vs Mustang. Camaro is not a daily driver friendly designed car - I have said this dozens of times. Won't sell well until this is fixed. GM should upgrade the Silverado interiors immediately.

That said, I generally find Ford vehicles kind of boring on a whole though. Edge, Escape, Fusion etc all dull. F-150 always looks the same. I'm not hot on any of them.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Purchasing back in charge at GM. Proving Mary simply looks at financials to appease investors. Design and content clearly a secondary consideration, if that. "No more crappy cars" was her promise. Maybe not crappy anymore but "Just OK cars" is her apparent acceptable reality. And Reuss, who is by reputation a "car guy" is almost solely focused on performance vehicles but clearly lacking any capacity for envisioning or championing beautiful design. Compelling/stunning cars not in the GM lexicon.
Just throwing this out there. What was the last mainstream "OMG" vehicle (from a design standpoint) that GM produced and sold at a profit?
And when was the last time GM executed a truly gorgeous interior?
 
#37 ·
Purchasing back in charge at GM. Proving Mary simply looks at financials to appease investors. Design and content clearly a secondary consideration, if that "No more crappy cars" was her promise. Maybe not crappy anymore but "Just OK cars" is her apparent acceptable reality. And Reuss, who is by reputation a "car guy" is almost solely focused on performance vehicles but clearly lacking any capacity for envisioning or championing beautiful design. Compelling/stunning cars not in the GM lexicon.
Just throwing this out there. What was the last mainstream "OMG" vehicle (from a design standpoint) that GM produced and sold at a profit?
And when was the last time GM executed a truly gorgeous interior?
Fifth gen. Camaro. Designed by SangYup Lee (currently with Hyundai).
 
#39 ·
Sorry.. I just don't completely agree with the sentiment that GM design is bad vs Ford's simply because Bob Lutz says so. It's ridiculous. I have Yet to see anything from all of Ford, with exception to the Mustang, and GT that is a true rival design wise versus a GM counterpart. And I get that GM truck interiors currently are perceived less than luxurious versus the RAM ones.. But Ford? GTFOH. The Aviator and Corsair are decent looking I guess, but I find them both too be bulbous and derivative.

Also.. Lutz left GM in spring '09.. I can go back and look at interior designs during his tenor and ask why is he suddenly the man with the plan? Certainly I have no reason to think that his suggestions may not have crept into interior design when the vehicles launched 5 years later went on sale.. But come on.. His ego is on boost. Less we forget that it was Lutz who was on watch when the Aztek hit.. Rendezvous.. Body cladding of Pontiac and the rubberized interiors that looked like a secret deal with Goodyear they were so... well rubberry

Now.. The Truck situation needs to be rectified soon.. Like yesterday. I've always wondered why truck and SUV interiors veered away from each other so starkly. The interiors in the current 2015-2019 K2xx Yukon, Escalade, and Tahoe are still arguably class leading. Would anyone complained if they had of simply adapted those to the trucks? I know I know.. there would be about 753 complainers but I think most would see it as positive.
 
#42 ·
^^Was going to say the same about Lutz...he had his share of turds while running/being a part of GM so his hands aren't clean enough to go on a "I told you so" tour. He may have been a car guy but his decision making process regarding product approvals made no sense at all...take the Kappa platform which was under his watch I believe, it was so quirky that it only could underpin a roadster/2 seat coupe. Very shortsighted.
 
#44 ·
Several cars from that time are going to be collector's items.
Solstice coupe and '09 XLR (refreshed, then killed) come to mind right off hand.
It's not inconceivable that there are only a few examples of certain colors of the '09 XLR-V that exist.
 
#55 ·
Rutt roe!!!

 
#61 · (Edited)
Originally Posted by CMiatso DaBang
Sorry.. I just don't completely agree with the sentiment that GM design is bad vs Ford's simply because Bob Lutz says so. It's ridiculous. I have Yet to see anything from all of Ford, with exception to the Mustang, and GT that is a true rival design wise versus a GM counterpart. And I get that GM truck interiors currently are perceived less than luxurious versus the RAM ones.. But Ford? GTFOH. The Aviator and Corsair are decent looking I guess, but I find them both too be bulbous and derivative.
This from the man who sent the Corvette back to the drawing board because it wasn't good enough, the man who was instrumental in getting Alpha and Omega to Cadillac and the design philosophy that flowed from them...

In all honesty, I found his assessment that a couple of years ago GM was at the top of their game but has now slipped back into pre BK attitude with product placement and isolation from actual buyers.

Also.. Lutz left GM in spring '09..
You may not know this but Lutz has been providing advice to GM executives informally since retiring from the company in 2010. From 2011 GM retained Lutz as an advisor and clearly he had some influence on decisions in that time and no doubt assisted in the resulting surge in sales we saw from about 2013/014

Now.. The Truck situation needs to be rectified soon.. Like yesterday. I've always wondered why truck and SUV interiors veered away from each other so starkly. The interiors in the current 2015-2019 K2xx Yukon, Escalade, and Tahoe are still arguably class leading. Would anyone complained if they had of simply adapted those to the trucks? I know I know.. there would be about 753 complainers but I think most would see it as positive.
Specific to the trucks, they have deviated away from the interiors offered in the SUVs and Lutz comments are basically that owners are 90% about the interiors and sensation - how the look feel, sound and drive....what they see everytime they drive their vehicles and taking the trucks down market in this area is something GM didn't need to do.


What concerns me more with the trucks is GM is expanding production of 1500 and HDs while actual sales have fallen over the past 18 months,
It's like GM is ignoring the market is still building for an up market, not a flattened market with defined limits on sales and stronger competition...
 
#66 ·
This from the man who sent the Corvette back to the drawing board because it wasn't good enough, the man who was instrumental in getting Alpha and Omega to Cadillac and the design philosophy that flowed from them...

1) In all honesty, I found his assessment that a couple of years ago GM was at the top of their game but has now slipped back into pre BK attitude with product placement and isolation from actual buyers.



2) You may not know this but Lutz has been providing advice to GM executives informally since retiring from the company in 2010. From 2011 GM retained Lutz as an advisor and clearly he had some influence on decisions in that time and no doubt assisted in the resulting surge in sales we saw from about 2013/014
1) Funny thing is I agree that based on the SINGULAR Silverado/Sierra dynamic duo.. its a strong possibility that he is correct. But I see many of the other interiors and I find myself questioning that too.

2) Yeah,. I knew it. I have zero problem with Bob Lutz.. and was sorry he had to retire.. but for his words to instantly be used as a justification and Holy Bible of what is what isn't right with GM just because it some how praises a Lincoln.. is sick
 
#63 ·
Neanderthal makes a solid point, with the Prius story. GM can’t think long term, worse than that, it doesn’t seem to allow its engineers to take risks and try something different.

“Even if we had failed, we would have gotten ahead of our rivals, so our future engineers would be able to utilize our know-how. It might not be of any immediate use, but I decided to develop hybrid technology."”

I’m an engineer at a Fortune 200 and my manager always encourages me saying similar words. It is okay to fail, you still would have learned something new.
 
#72 ·
Lutz is popular among car enthusiasts because he says and does things they like, overspending on pet projects while ignoring the reality of selling cars and staying profitable. People forget he also helped bankrupt GM.

I don't dispute what he's saying about Ford, although he doesn't really have anything insightful or groundbreaking at all to say here to begin with. Critiquing design is the laymen's way of looking at the industry, it always has been. There is far more substance and strategy to product than design. But I can't help but read this and be amazed by how full of himself he is. According to Bob, everything was right under his leadership, he fixed everything, he made them the best designers in the world, he has all the solutions, etc. What a laugh! He got to spend the piggy bank down and he thinks he has something to say now.
 
#73 · (Edited)
Lutz is popular among car enthusiasts because he says and does things they like, overspending on pet projects while ignoring the reality of selling cars and staying profitable. People forget he also helped bankrupt GM.
Lutz arrived at GM in 2001 and by that time GM had lots of institutional problems with internal politics that no amount of product development could ever cover, he was arguably just as captive of those politics as any other section head. GM already had so many vehicles that just didn't make money that a major reset was needed to cull the herd but Waggoner wouldn't allow it.

I don't dispute what he's saying about Ford, although he doesn't really have anything insightful or groundbreaking at all to say here to begin with. Critiquing design is the laymen's way of looking at the industry, it always has been. There is far more substance and strategy to product than design.
Bob Lutz is no layman and his critiquing of GM product is also based on a life long career of product development and being a valued consultant to GM over the past decade and because of that, his opinion and critiquing carries far more weight than someone on the internet.

Bob has always been a car guy with strong opinions both good and bad but has always found a way to make himself look good before leaving with a golden parachute..
But I can't help but read this and be amazed by how full of himself he is. According to Bob, everything was right under his leadership, he fixed everything, he made them the best designers in the world, he has all the solutions, etc. What a laugh! He got to spend the piggy bank down and he thinks he has something to say now.
I didn't get any of that from this article, all he spoke about in relation to GM
was the importance of interior on buyers and how he tried to change that at GM and his disappointment that maybe GM is creeping backwards in Silverado.

No other GM products were mentioned.
 
#74 ·
This is why I continue to pounce on the point that Mary Barra started at General Motors as an engineer in quality control in 1979. People overlook this so much it infuriates me - she was a QC engineer when there WAS NO SUCH THING!!!

How someone like her could go from giving thumbs up on projects like the HT4100 motor and Iron Duke to the CEO is mind boggling.

GM MUST get rid of her and get a younger CEO from outside the company.

Best Buy had nothing but internal CEOs for 40 years until they were on the verge of BK about 5 years ago, then the board went with someone who'd never worked for Best Buy a day in his life and it has turned the company around.

GM must do the same. They need a leader with fresh ideas and an understanding of what makes a successful car company.
 
#76 ·
I agree that they need to look for an outside leader. If they ever do that, that person is going to have a ton of work getting rid of the bureaucracy and group think. Hopefully a true leader can be found before it is too late.
 
#98 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

.

During my nine years at GM, I thought I cured them of the tendency to take cost out of the interior and convinced them the interior is where you put the money, where the customer can see and feel and touch.
This made me laugh. Interiors at GM during his tenure were fairly mediocre.
 
#99 ·
Re: Bob Lutz on GM vs. Ford in design:

This made me laugh. Interiors at GM during his tenure were fairly mediocre.
That's true, especially with GM's lower cost models. But GM vehicles designed during Bob Lutz' tenure as Vice Chairman of Product Development, Chairman of GM North America, and head of GM Global Product Development from 2001 to 2009 had notably improved interiors compared to their predecessors. Lutz did achieve some success changing GM's culture when it came to product development. He said in 2005,

Bob Lutz said:
"we’re going all out on interiors, because we know interiors for many years were weak on GM products. A lot of people have said to me, ‘Your cars look OK until I open the door and then I don’t like them anymore.’ So we decided to fix that and we’re somewhat overcompensating on interiors."
Certainly, GM didn't achieve all of Lutz' goals for interior design and quality. But it at least made progress from the mid 2000s until the mid 2010s. Sadly, many new GM models introduced after 2015 such as D2XX Cruze, 8th generation Malibu, 2nd generation Insignia/6th gen Regal, and 3rd generation Equinox all have interior quality and design that's worse than their predecessors.
 
#109 ·
jpd80; Styling direction said:
I'd be the last one to try and predict 'design trends' and where everything is headed.
There is however an increasing trend to play it safe. Not everywhere mind you, yes we're talking about you, Lexus, but the investments for new products are at an all time high. No one wants to go out on a limb, and most companies want to blend in and not offend anyone. With the world wide web, every designer and student designer knows what's happening in every competitors studios in real time around the globe. It used to take months waiting for Motor Trend for everyone to see what was happening. Now everyone sees everything in real time. The designers for the most part attend the same great design schools and are influenced by one another. The end result is what we see on the roads today. Now this isn't true for every car company globally, but many are. It's a sign of the times. Some design organizations that are taking risks border on the goofy at times, IMO. But that's the price of creativity.

The stakes are very high in the vehicle/mobility business. No one wants another Aztec or Edsel. Too much money is on the line. The industry is terrified with the unknown future. Electrification? Autonomy? Ride sharing? Non car ownership? Uber/Lyft? Etc.,etc.,etc.

What an exciting time to be in the business!
 
#126 ·
GM announced after bk that it would go after the mainstream vehicles. This led to risk-free cars that follow market trends, not leading.
It's not surprising that this leads to middle of the road design, not offensive, not radical, not risky.
Bob Lutz may be old, but he understands the car business better than most, including GM's management.
 
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