The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

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Thread: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

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    GMI Contributor Premium Member Ming's Avatar
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    The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Four Staff Member Commentaries - Read what the GMI staff has to say about the Alliance proposals and rumors with Renault-Nissan, Toyota, and more!


    Ming:There's no G.M. In "Alliance"

    Swahili:Someone Has to Say It. "Thanks, But No Thanks."

    Mgescuro:The GNR Alliance

    ChevroletRevived:If you care about GM, Take Action!
    Last edited by Ming; 07-16-2006 at 11:33 AM.

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Nice avatar.
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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    What about Rex, Branden, and NSAP
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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by Corr69
    What about Rex, Branden, and NSAP
    I agree.... Let's get one post with all of the staff members' essays.
    What is happening to the GM that grew up with for these many decades? If I could I would institute a hostile take over and kick the entire board and executives out and fill the positions with creative minds under the age of 35.

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by Corr69
    What about Rex, Branden, and NSAP
    What about us? Us three have not wrote anything regarding the alliance.

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by PontiacBixler
    I agree.... Let's get one post with all of the staff members' essays.
    Sometimes we do that, a few times a year. But not all of us are always available to add our takes.

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Cool, thanks for having all the links easy for us.
    I'll make a new sig. Later.
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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Can't say I'm that impressed with any of the essays - they all seem pretty reactionary. IMO you've all written more convincing editorials. The fact of the matter is for GM to exist beyond the near future, they need cost parity. If joining an alliance gives them an end run around the union, or access to predeveloped technology which is superior to what they are using (basically any 4 or 6 cyl engine and OHC V8s) and they trade in return a bunch of closing factories and the two mode hybrid system. I'm not sure thats such a bad idea.

    Bottom line, I'm more concerned with GM's survival than who they link up with - and unlike some of you, I'm not convinced at all that GM is on solid ground in their turnaround. Fact remains, GM cannot build a competitive midsize or smaller car. It simply costs too much. Well, thats exactly where the market is headed.

    Why does GM rock SUVs, fullsize trucks, and to an extent expensive cars? Because of the profit margins. It not much of a problem if GM makes 7K on a Tahoe, and Toyota makes 10K on an equivalent Sequioa. However, if Toyota makes 1,500 on a Camry, but GM would lose 1K if they built an equivalent vehicle - thats a problem, so GM puts a bunch of outdated technology in a shiny box and smacks a sale sticker on it - then calls it G6 and breaks even after the obligatory sale. At least they didn't lose money.

    I suspect this is why Wagoner is checking this out and why Toyota isn't happy about it - maybe the people actually playing the game and not monday morning quarterbacking it know something we don't. Maybe that something is in the age of $4.00 gas - the turnaround plan isn't going to work. GM has to make profits on cars that sticker for less than 25K and get 30-40 mpg combined.

    Maybe a japanese alliance would put an end to the currency manipulation. Personally, I'd vote for a Honda alliance in a second. GM could access their engines, Honda could take advantage of GM's platforms and V8s. Honda could bring the Northstar into the 21st century, and GM could show Honda how to build an advanced hybrid system. GM would get better access to japanese batteries and a class leading engine in the base Solstice, and GM could show Honda the power of forced induction and their DI work. Honda could learn a thing or two about E85 and turbochargers. GM would get access to a class leading minivan, Honda would get access to the most fuel efficient V8s on the planet. Basically, Honda and GM aren't both class leading at anything - that has the makings of an alliance. Both companies do what they are best at.
    Last edited by goblue; 07-16-2006 at 05:38 PM.

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by goblue
    Can't say I'm that impressed with any of the essays - they all seem pretty reactionary. The fact of the matter is for GM to exist beyond the near future, they need cost parity. If joining an alliance gives them an end run around the union, or access to predeveloped technology which is superior to what they are using (basically any 4 or 6 cyl engine and OHC V8s) and they trade in return a bunch of factories and the two mode hybrid system. I'm not sure thats such a bad idea.

    Bottom line, I'm more concerned with GM's survival than who they link up with
    If GM's survival means being absorbed by Nissan-Renault or Toyota in the long run, like the HP-Compaq "merger", then what's to hope for? A Chevrolet with a Nissan or Toyota engine and transmission might as well be a Toyota or Nissan. I'd take a short cut and support those companies outright/directly if I was of that mind, instead of fooling myself with a Chevy emblem.

    If an alliance would guarantee some kind of survival for GM engineered product at some level, I'd be more inclined to support it.

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming
    If GM's survival means being absorbed by Nissan-Renault or Toyota in the long run, like the HP-Compaq "merger", then what's to hope for? A Chevrolet with a Nissan or Toyota engine and transmission might as well be a Toyota or Nissan. I'd take a short cut and support those companies outright/directly if I was of that mind, instead of fooling myself with a Chevy emblem.

    If an alliance would guarantee some kind of survival for GM engineered product at some level, I'd be more inclined to support it.
    Thing is, GM isn't GM anymore if one of these deals go through. So what's to support?

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming
    If GM's survival means being absorbed by Nissan-Renault or Toyota in the long run, like the HP-Compaq "merger", then what's to hope for? A Chevrolet with a Nissan or Toyota engine and transmission might as well be a Toyota or Nissan. I'd take a short cut and support those companies outright/directly if I was of that mind, instead of fooling myself with a Chevy emblem.

    If an alliance would guarantee some kind of survival for GM engineered product at some level, I'd be more inclined to support it.
    I believe it would. They want access to our factories to expand, GM gets cash and access to some technology. That cash will allow GM to spend more on R&D. GM is superior at some things, many powertrain technologies come to mind, some alt fuel and hybrid systems, and many thigs having to do with a truck or SUV.

    Wagoner is considering this b/c when they "sell" a factory the workers go with it, and lose their benefits. Cost savings. So, its a way to offload the unnecessary plants, and get paid for it - in addition GM might access some fuel efficient 4 cylinder engines that have good NVH.

    I'd feel better about buying the V6 Vue than a V6 Rav4 - I'm sure you would as well. Thats the sort of thing they are discussing, not putting a Camaro body on a 350Z with a high revving 6.

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by ChevroletRevived
    Thing is, GM isn't GM anymore if one of these deals go through. So what's to support?
    Not true at all. See above posts - they have whittled down the suppliers about as far as they can go - its about getting access to our unused capacity and GM getting money and access to technology they can't afford to build under the UAW. GM engineers are fantastic - problem is, they are working with both hands and a leg tied behind their backs. There's no money to build a better product.

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by goblue
    Can't say I'm that impressed with any of the essays - they all seem pretty reactionary. IMO you've all written more convincing editorials. The fact of the matter is for GM to exist beyond the near future, they need cost parity. If joining an alliance gives them an end run around the union, or access to predeveloped technology which is superior to what they are using (basically any 4 or 6 cyl engine and OHC V8s) and they trade in return a bunch of closing factories and the two mode hybrid system. I'm not sure thats such a bad idea.
    Please point out where my commentary was "reactionary."
    I point out a number of areas where there "should" be key synergies, and there are any. Furthermore, my commentary came out before any of the Wall Street and media analysts came out with theirs. And thus far, all their analysis ECHOES mine.
    So please.... I'd like to know...
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    Quote Originally Posted by goblue
    Bottom line, I'm more concerned with GM's survival than who they link up with - and unlike some of you, I'm not convinced at all that GM is on solid ground in their turnaround. Fact remains, GM cannot build a competitive midsize or smaller car. It simply costs too much. Well, thats exactly where the market is headed.
    You're right. THey haven't been able to build a competitive compact or mid-sized car. Then again, their focus hasn't been on the mid-size market at this time. They have stop gaps at this point in time. Nor has that been the focus on any commentary thus far.
    Then again... the upgraded G6 and new Aura seem to provide some answer where GM is headed with that market. They have barely been on the market, and no media outlet has really given them the full run through yet. So we just don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by goblue
    I suspect this is why Wagoner is checking this out and why Toyota isn't happy about it - maybe the people actually playing the game and not monday morning quarterbacking it know something we don't. Maybe that something is in the age of $4.00 gas - the turnaround plan isn't going to work. GM has to make profits on cars that sticker for less than 25K and get 30-40 mpg combined.
    And business-wise, the alliance doesn't make any sense. Read my commentary.
    I'm more inclined to believe that Wagoner is just running through the paces here to "appaease" shareholders and bide some time. THe alliance makes no sense whatsoever. There's not more R-N can add to GM that GM doesnt already have in place or in the pipline already.

    Quote Originally Posted by goblue
    Maybe a japanese alliance would put an end to the currency manipulation. Personally, I'd vote for a Honda alliance in a second. GM could access their engines, Honda could take advantage of GM's platforms and V8s. Honda could bring the Northstar into the 21st century, and GM could show Honda how to build an advanced hybrid system. GM would get better access to japanese batteries and a class leading engine in the base Solstice, and GM could show Honda the power of forced induction and their DI work. Honda could learn a thing or two about E85 and turbochargers. GM would get access to a class leading minivan, Honda would get access to the most fuel efficient V8s on the planet. Basically, Honda and GM aren't both class leading at anything - that has the makings of an alliance. Both companies do what they are best at.
    How would one alliance between GM and Nissan end currency manipulation?? One company doesn't control that, especially a mid-sized automaker like Nissan.
    What has Honda gotten from GM and vice versa from their current alliance? Why would Honda want GM's V8's?? What is so "eco-friendly" about them? How does that fit with their eco-friendly image? It doesn't. Northstar is an old engine. Northstar SC is something GM shouldn't be sharing int he first place. You think Honda would benefit with a Vortec??? Or would that affect the truck market so much that would tip the balance in FAVOR of the Ridgeline??
    Would supporting Honda getting an advanced hybrid system help or HURT GM?? Would you buy a Malibu with an advanced hybrid??? Or would you rather buy an Accord with one??
    Why would GM need DI technology?? Saab is a leader in DI technology and has been since 2000 when they implemented it in a concept engine.
    Battery technology is something GM already has and is a leader in research. Batteries are also bought via 3rd party suppliers like Sanyo. Nothing to do with Honda.

    Honda really doesn't need anything from GM that they don't have already or have suppliers for -- except maybe a V8. Perhaps there's a benefit here, but a full-fledged alliance? No. Perhaps in small segments here and there. But that's it. Perhaps Honda could join the hybrid alliance with DCX and BMW. Nothing more.

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by mgescuro

    And business-wise, the alliance doesn't make any sense. Read my commentary.
    I'm more inclined to believe that Wagoner is just running through the paces here to "appaease" shareholders and bide some time. THe alliance makes no sense whatsoever. There's not more R-N can add to GM that GM doesnt already have in place or in the pipline already.

    .
    Very true, Wagoner is on very touchy ground right now. Share holders want more than 1% return on their investments.

    Any alliance, if it were to be benifial would not show up for 2-5 years. GM's share holders want change right now. Would the cost savings of parts sharing really make a difference in the right now time frame?

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    Re: The GMI Staff Speaks out about Alliance Proposals

    Staff members have to write about these events, or are they doing it out of their own free will ?

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