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GM, defying Daimler's fire concerns, sticks with new refrigerant

3K views 20 replies 16 participants last post by  chinamonty 
#1 ·
GM, defying Daimler's fire concerns, sticks with new refrigerant from Honeywell, DuPont
Automotive News
January 5, 2012
by David Sedgwick

General Motors is sticking with its decision to introduce a new, more environmentally safe refrigerant in its vehicles despite claims by Daimler that it may cause fires in an accident.

A GM executive said GM conducted additional crash tests plus computer simulations after the German automaker raised questions about the refrigerant HFO-1234yf.

In August, Daimler engineers simulated a crash test and found that a mix of refrigerant and oil from the compressor could be ignited by the hot surface of the engine, creating a toxic gas.

But Curt Vincent, GM's engineering manager for new refrigerants, disputes Daimler's claims.

"We did crash tests, computer simulations and thermal analysis and did not observe any safety problems at all," Vincent told Automotive News, a sister publication of Automotive News Europe, in a phone interview. "Many [researchers] have tried to repeat Daimler's findings, but no one has come forward with anything that would indicate any concern."

Vincent made his remarks even as Daimler and Volkswagen postponed their use of the refrigerant.

GM already uses the chemical in the Cadillac XTS and in the European version of the Chevrolet Malibu. Over the next five years or so, GM will convert most of its models sold in North America to the new refrigerant, Vincent said.

Full article at link.
 
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#2 ·
Nobody wants to change over to the stuff yet probably because it costs $$$$ to change vehicles over to follow.

Or...maybe Daimler is butt-hurt that GM launched a new technology before them...
 
#5 ·
That's very likely. LCCP results of HFO-1234yf are generally quite favorable compared to R134a. Among other things, HFO-1234yf allows for more efficient internal heat exchanger designs in automotive aircon units.
 
#6 ·
If Diamler and VW are correct and GM is wrong, can you imagine the lawsuit if there is a fire and people are seriously hurt or killed? They can't plead ignorance and will have to rely on their own tests. How would a jury react to something done by a company with strong ties to the government that is using a product encouraged and partially paid for by the government? Juries don't always act on the facts alone but on emotion.
 
#7 ·
It's not the fire that's the issue - it's the fumes from combustion of the combination of the refrigerant and the compressor oil. I don't know what the issue is because as soon as the refrigerant hits the atmosphere it gasifies and dissipates. Besides there is a far more combustible fluid running around the engine compartment.
 
#10 ·
:lmao:

Literally and figuratively! Nice one Hunid Racks...
 
#15 ·
We've been working on site with it for several years. It sounds worse than it really is. Hell, Freon 12 off gassed phosgene(mustard gas) when burned and when I worked as an automotive service tech,we used to use flame fired leak detectors to find leaks in systems. You'd watch for a color change in the flame.
 
#17 · (Edited)
No argument from me regarding briefly burning very small small leaks.

The concern is combustion after system rupture ... several pounds of HFO-1234yf plus the presence of moisture.

How "safe" is safe enough?
 
#16 ·
As long as they don't phase out R134a I'm okay. I went through the pain of converting my old cars to it back when R12 became almost impossible to find.
 
#19 ·
The impetus for the changeover: The new solution was designed to replace the refrigerant called HFC-134a, which is used globally as the standard air conditioning refrigerant in automobiles. It is a good refrigerant, but has a global warming potential (GWP) of 1430 and an atmospheric lifetime of 14 years. Recently, an F-gas directive was issued by the European Union (EU) requiring the use of a refrigerant having a GWP less than 150 in new platform cars beginning in 2011, with full conversion by 2017

Copied from a Dupont press release.
 
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