Which Sedan Should The US Police Drive?

[BBDOS CV8]

[YOUTUBE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-XwOBKntAU

[/YOUTUBE]

Note comment about body separating from chassis.

Official side impact rating: poor. Then you get into the fuel cell in the trunk.......

[syr74]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

Note comment about body separating from chassis.

Official side impact rating: poor. Then you get into the fuel cell in the trunk.......

Unfortunately for your argument Ford is building 2010 Crown Victorias at the moment, they stopped producing the 2006 models some time ago, and this is actually the official government rating for the Crown Victoria.

http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/...002fd17898RCRD

As for the fuel cell, the whole notion was ridiculous with the notion being that a stationary Crown Victoria should be able to survive a rear impact from a large truck moving at highways speeds and still effectively assure driver survival. It never received serious consideration from the vast majority of police departments because it wasn't worthy of that attention.

Your disconnect with law enforcement wants and needs in the United States is obvious, which in itself is not problematic since it would be unreasonable to expect that you would understand this subject particularly well. The problem is that this is leading you to embrace the same kind of unrealistic expectations some folks held for the G8 sedan when it first arrived on our shores.

I predicted the utter failure of that car, and now I am predicting the failure of the revised police interceptor model. This car has one chance, and that is the possibility that Ford will indeed cancel Police Interceptor production in the near future. Outside of that, this reeks of complete disaster.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by syr74

Your disconnect with law enforcement wants and needs in the United States is obvious, which in itself is not problematic since it would be unreasonable to expect that you would understand this subject particularly well. The problem is that this is leading you to embrace the same kind of unrealistic expectations some folks held for the G8 sedan when it first arrived on our shores.

I predicted the utter failure of that car, and now I am predicting the failure of the revised police interceptor model. This car has one chance, and that is the possibility that Ford will indeed cancel Police Interceptor production in the near future. Outside of that, this reeks of complete disaster.

The Police Interceptor is dead after 2011.

http://www.officer.com/online/articl...ion=1&id=48610

Did you completely miss the article about Ford trying to market the Taurus to LE agencies to replace their Crown Vics?

[chakis24]

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

The argument for producing a cop car from Oz goes something like this: Holden planned to produce 30+k G8s per year, with the number produced reducing their per unit cost. To make up the volume lost in Pontiac closing, they would need similar production to get the planned unit cost. Therefore, 30+k G8-based cars are needed, and they are produced as G8-based cop cars.
With the VE Commodore being updated to VF, the mce is the ideal time to update the platform for North American production. Americans want their cop cars to be American, so GM can announce the cop car will be produced first in Oz, and in North America after a year or so.
A business plan for North American production:
To produce cars with the lowest per unit cost, the factory must be fully utilized. GM would rely on keeping a NA plant busy producing zeta products, which the Camaro doesn't do. Therefore, they would need to add zeta production to add to the Camaro's total. If the Camaro sells 100,000 models a year and the factory can make 300,000, there would need to be 200,000 additional product for lowest per unit cost. Next you add 30,000 zeta-based police cars, bringing the total to 130,000 a year. Then you open up the market with 100,000 Impalas a year for consumers, bringing the total to 230,000 a year. Add in 20,000 El Caminos (G8ST) for 250,000. You could add an additional 25,000Chevelle/Monte Carlo's, bringing the total to 275,000. You could use knock-down kits to add 40,000 Buick Park Avenues, bringing the total to 315,000, exceeding "full capacity." Each car would have a targeted amount, which would vary by actual consumer demand. Using the same scenario, you could add a Riviera, and El Dorado, a DT7, and so on.
So it starts with police car production.....

holy crap i hope you're right.

[chinamonty]

Originally Posted by syr74

Unfortunately for your argument Ford is building 2010 Crown Victorias at the moment, they stopped producing the 2006 models some time ago, and this is actually the official government rating for the Crown Victoria.

http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/...002fd17898RCRD

As for the fuel cell, the whole notion was ridiculous with the notion being that a stationary Crown Victoria should be able to survive a rear impact from a large truck moving at highways speeds and still effectively assure driver survival. It never received serious consideration from the vast majority of police departments because it wasn't worthy of that attention.

Your disconnect with law enforcement wants and needs in the United States is obvious, which in itself is not problematic since it would be unreasonable to expect that you would understand this subject particularly well. The problem is that this is leading you to embrace the same kind of unrealistic expectations some folks held for the G8 sedan when it first arrived on our shores.

I predicted the utter failure of that car, and now I am predicting the failure of the revised police interceptor model. This car has one chance, and that is the possibility that Ford will indeed cancel Police Interceptor production in the near future. Outside of that, this reeks of complete disaster.

How would Police needs vary that much? Both have to urban, suburban and rural roads to contend with and a lot of our rural roads could better be described as goat tracks. We know they will physically handle those challenges as they do here as Police vehicles. Maybe your Police vehicles get rammed more than ours. Can you give us some insight in to the differing conditions.

[mikmak]

There is one vital aspect that seems to be ignored here. The safety of the officers. The old tech that is used for the Crown Vic is ridiculous. It is a 20th century vehicle. Whilst we can't directly compare crash data without doing an equivalency assessment of NHTSA standards vs. those used by ANCAP (no I don't have the time), it is insulting IMO that law enforcement officers would have to use such old tech. The best crash prevcention measue is a competent chassis. The Panther is not even in the same ball park as the G8, or the Charger for that matter.

[Burnout Czar]

Hopefully I dont get pulled over anytime soon but If I do I would prefer it to be by a Zeta based vehicle!

[isszy]

^^ I got pulled up by one just like this.



The ticket still hurt the same...

[mikmak]

lol. How much did it hurt isszy? 1 point? 3? 6!?! Haven't lost a point in three years!

P.S. I'm touching wood.

[Dr. Show-Me]

You cannot assume that Crown Vic production is going to end. Ford recently stated that production would likely end because the car is so costly to produce, ie, the wages paid are too high. By inference, lower wages could mean that CV production could continue.
An updated CV would be a very good product.
A big issue with CVs is officer deaths when their stopped cruiser is hit from behind. While I feel empathy toward the dead officers' families, no car is designed to withstand an impact from a speeding 18 wheeler that strikes the parked car at 50-80 mph. In fact, even a smaller car would carry so much momentum that the crash may not be survivable.
The cervical spine is easily damaged by far less severe trauma than that, and the prospect of a C2 or C3 fracture leading to quadriplegia and/or death is very high, to say nothing of the possibility of severe 3rd degree burns.
The nature of the collision is somewhat analogous to the Pinto crashes of years ago. The Pinto was criticized because it would burst into flame on occasion when hit from behind in a similar to above type collisions. The Pintos were no worse than other cars, but the media chastised Ford over it unfairly.
To me, the bigger issue is the repairability of unibody cars after sustaining heavy damage, which cop cars frequently do. Would a unibody car be totalled while a bof was repairable? Perhaps someone familiar with the differences in repairability between body on frame versus unibody could add his expertise (not opinions please)

[BBDOS CV8]

Originally Posted by syr74

Unfortunately for your argument Ford is building 2010 Crown Victorias at the moment, they stopped producing the 2006 models some time ago, and this is actually the official government rating for the Crown Victoria.

http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/...002fd17898RCRD

As for the fuel cell, the whole notion was ridiculous with the notion being that a stationary Crown Victoria should be able to survive a rear impact from a large truck moving at highways speeds and still effectively assure driver survival. It never received serious consideration from the vast majority of police departments because it wasn't worthy of that attention.

Your disconnect with law enforcement wants and needs in the United States is obvious, which in itself is not problematic since it would be unreasonable to expect that you would understand this subject particularly well. The problem is that this is leading you to embrace the same kind of unrealistic expectations some folks held for the G8 sedan when it first arrived on our shores.

I predicted the utter failure of that car, and now I am predicting the failure of the revised police interceptor model. This car has one chance, and that is the possibility that Ford will indeed cancel Police Interceptor production in the near future. Outside of that, this reeks of complete disaster.

The car was not an utter failure. GM admitted
1) that Pontiac was dead before they even signed the G8 deal
2) they did not have the money to properly launch or market the car. Efven without that, in it's second year it was close to achieving it's targets.

The vehicle is not meritless. It didn't fail because it it's primary mission was beyond it. A police car is a different kettle of fish to a car marketted to the public. If the cops choose it ( and as someone pointed out, it won't just be 'one' selection) then there is a ready-made and continuing market.

How are US cops that different to Australian Cops? They need sedan type vehicles, capable of carrying 5 adults and a range of equipment. They prefer strong RWD vehicles for lots of reasons. No-one in America seemingly wants to or can provide that except Dodge/Chrysler.

Claiming a Ford Crown Vic is superior to every modern unibody car because it's BOF is laughable. It's like claiming jets should be made with discrete frames and the body bolted on top. Good monocoque unibody design as distinct from poor design is not inherently weaker or less durable than BOF. Quite the opposite. Or things subjected to repeated high stress where failure would mean death(s) like airliners, submarines and space shuttles wouldn't be monocoque.

The one advantage the CV had, long incumbency and cheap replacement, is going. I hope oyu're not claiming it's even on the same page when it comes to primary safety or performance.

So if the only question is whether the VE Commodore can hang together as well and long as a CV. I am sure the Police associations would want to see proof before they commit - they won't write any blank cheques and they're no fools.

[isszy]

Originally Posted by mikmak

lol. How much did it hurt isszy? 1 point? 3? 6!?! Haven't lost a point in three years!

P.S. I'm touching wood.

About $200 if I remember rightly - 122 in a 100 zone. Had he caught me a few kays earlier, I'd still be walking.

[BBDOS CV8]

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

You cannot assume that Crown Vic production is going to end. Ford recently stated that production would likely end because the car is so costly to produce, ie, the wages paid are too high. By inference, lower wages could mean that CV production could continue.
An updated CV would be a very good product.

The Pintos were no worse than other cars, but the media chastised Ford over it unfairly.
To me, the bigger issue is the repairability of unibody cars after sustaining heavy damage, which cop cars frequently do. Would a unibody car be totalled while a bof was repairable? Perhaps someone familiar with the differences in repairability between body on frame versus unibody could add his expertise (not opinions please)

You are correct in that Ford wasn't Sam-Malone in making cars that way: but the Pinto was a major seller: and having a hatchback with an open load area where the floor of the cabin under a carpet cover was the petrol tank top was maybe not dilligent. Ford were merely the highest-profile purveyer.

As far as damage, if the safety perimeter/passenger compartment structure has high-strength steel and it takes a hit, that usually counts as a writeoff. That would be BOF or unibody. If the car is that damaged the ladder frame in BOF is bent, it would likely be beyond economical repair due to damage to the passenger compartment: you can't cut or weld high-strength steel because it is heat-treated after initial assembly. Those VINs by law in Australia are marked unregisterable and the cars sold for salvage and I can't imagine the US is any different.

Other than that the VE has a removeable front module that is more repairable if anything because there is no radiator support panel welded to the car: and bolt-on front guards. The front and rear suspension members each unbolts as a unit. I bet 10 minutes after police get it they'll have cradles rigged to drop everything out from under the car.

[mmciau]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

...

As far as damage, if the safety perimeter/passenger compartment structure has high-strength steel and it takes a hit, that usually counts as a write off. That would be BOF or uni-body. If the car is that damaged the ladder frame in BOF is bent, it would likely be beyond economical repair due to damage to the passenger compartment: you can't cut or weld high-strength steel because it is heat-treated after initial assembly. Those VINs by law in Australia are marked unregistrable and the cars sold for salvage and I can't imagine the US is any different.


...

.

I have seen many-a-car written-off by Insurers from the basis of the airbags alone having deployed!! The Insurers are very aware that the body itself, whether BOF or unitary may not be damaged all that much but because of the myriad of electronics and associated functions being damaged or may be damaged, it is deemed beyond economical repair!!

Now you may also appreciate that Government agencies get their fleet vehicles at very attractive costings, so the Write-off figure may also not be very high!

And as BBDOS CV8 stated, VINs of cars written off in Australia are logged as not-registrable.

I have personally seen many SAPOL Fleet Cars that have been damaged being written off - a fact of Police Work at times.

As has been stated earlier, the vehicle safety requirements are paramount consideration on this day and age because Police would need to ensure their workplace meets the best OHS & W standards available.


Mike

[mikmak]

177!! Let's just say for legality sake, that MonaroSS chopped that pic for you