Rate GM's Handling of Cadillac

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by MiosoBosa

How are people rating the XTS when it hasn't even broke cover or been driven yet?

Are we hating on this vehicle because it is possibly FWD? But what if it is AWD an handles better than the S-Class and 7-Series? The SRX seems to be capable of handling as well as the X5, Q5, etc. This is possibly moot since I don't know one Executive class Sedan owner that ever explores the potential of their RWD based vehicles.

IMO, Yes.
IMO, It doesn't matter much.
All Cadillac's should be RWD or if AWD, should be RWD based. Period!

A car(XTS) looking like the Sixteen, should be RWD/AWD-RWD based!
Not AWD-FWD based.



!!!!

[Toto]

Originally Posted by MiosoBosa

Isn't the Audi A8 FWD/AWD? I know in Europe the A8 comes in FWD.

Yes, but only the 2.8 FSI e (210hp) is FWD only. The 3.2 FSI (260hp) can be ordered with FWD or AWD. All other gas/diesel engines have quattro.

[RedVee8]

I'm starting to get too depressed about Cadillac to vote.
They seem to becoming the expendable appendage of GM.
From their 'reinvention' period where they promised so much with CTS, STS, SRX, XLR and those great show cars, they have declined to the point that they will need another great reinvention if they are going to take their place amongst the elite.
D and going dddddown.

[cire_1wb]

All I can say is that GM appears to be clueless on how to strategically position and market Buick, GMC, and Cadillac. The mission and purpose of all three brands lack definition and focus. GM is in a unique position to really target specific segments and demographics with these three brands, but it doesn't seem like anyone in the organization (and yes, that includes the "almighty" Bob Lutz) has the vision or ability to recognize and exploit the potential of these brands.

[MiosoBosa]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Because at GM a FWD car means that it will NOT have more then 300 HP... and if that's all we have under the hood then we are bringing a butter knife to a gun fight... regardless of how it handles it will spend its life looking at taillights.

Sadly the sales numbers of the STS, the DTS and the XLR support the failing grades.

The sales numbers of those cars seem to have a lot more to do with GM not supporting them and, at the moment, not having an abundance of them on the lots.

I, for one, remember that the STS enjoyed sales that were pretty high considering the segment in late 2007 and early to mid 2008 before GM simply seemed to lose interest in it and killed actual production. The STS was always a conundrum anyway, often compared to the 5series in price but the 7series in size in my circle at least. It's sales were actually on par with the Lexus GS, Infiniti M, yet above the Audi A6 and Acura RL. Those last two models still live, but GM, once again losing interest due to a car not automatically taking the lead in a segment is replacing the long running "Seville Touring Sedan."

[johnstarnes]

If they launch the Converj with no watering down, create a production version of a gen 2 XLR that looks as amazing as the one that Docray refered to, AND make the new large sedan and ATS be STUNNING in appearance and stellar in quality, I will remain hopeful for Cadillac.

[MiosoBosa]

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

MiosoBosa,

I understand. My view of Cadillac is from a luxury buyer perspective, when I compared Cadillac's luxury models for purchase with comparable models from Acura, Aston Martin, Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, Lincoln, Maserati, Mercedes-Benz and Range Rover. The specific categories from Cadillac I evaluated for purchase were the mid size premium luxury performance sedan, luxury performance roadster and full size luxury performance SUV. I have evaluated all of Cadillac's models in detail for 2009 purchase consideration with exception of the Cadillac DTS.

In fairness to the Cadillac DTS and DTS Platinum, I have only experience with the DTS when I was provided a DTS as a loaner when my Cadillac XLR was in for service for several days. I was very impressed with its ride quality, however I am not a fan of its overall design.

As a result of my comparative evaluation, I purchased a 2005 Cadillac STS V8, my first Cadillac by the way and a 2005 Cadillac XLR. And again for my new luxury car purchases in 2008 and 2009, I evaluated Cadillac's 2009 XLR Platinum and Cadillac's 2008 Escalade AWD and I purchased both.

So, my rating of Cadillac and its luxury models are from the view of a luxury buyer and Cadillac owner, not from a Cadillac critic or reviewer perspective. If I had not selected these Cadillac luxury models for purchase and experienced Cadillac ownership, I could have a different opinion. However, in my case, Cadillac has earned its position today to be my luxury brand of first choice.

JLM

I cannot disagree with your choice. I believe Cadillac is well on its way to reclaiming all around prominence in the Luxury segment once the ATS and XTS are released. The STS and CTS are excellent luxury cars and have done great things in returning Cadillac to the hearts and minds of luxury buyers. The STS still, in my opinion, could have been better, or more precisely, more on point with a stronger engine, extra size (both length and width) and some details reworked. It is my understanding that the Chinese version addressed 1/2 of these issues by being given the extra length and interior refinement, while the STS-V addressed my issues with the engine. My belief and hope, based on simple logic, is that the XTS will be a much better take on this segment.

Originally Posted by LeSabre

IMO, Yes.
IMO, It doesn't matter much.
All Cadillac's should be RWD or if AWD, should be RWD based. Period!

A car(XTS) looking like the Sixteen, should be RWD/AWD-RWD based!
Not AWD-FWD based.!!!!

Why?

From what I've been reading Audi is considered to be a top luxury brand. It has AWD/FWD bias. None of their cars are RWD that I know of. In reality I am lost on this obsession with RWD. I have tracked everything from Corvettes to AWD Gallardos yet cannot seem to come up with a reason why the bias exists. Truth is that an AWD Corvette, or CTS-V would be 30% better performers due to better traction capabilities.

Originally Posted by Toto

Yes, but only the 2.8 FSI e (210hp) is FWD only. The 3.2 FSI (260hp) can be ordered with FWD or AWD. All other gas/diesel engines have quattro.

Yes it is available though. The proposed XTS is being crucified for having the same choice available.

[N8s07ss]

Originally Posted by MiosoBosa

I have tracked everything from Corvettes to AWD Gallardos yet cannot seem to come up with a reason why the bias exists.

Wouldn't a counter arguement be to look at race cars. How many racing curcuits are DOMINATED by FWD/AWD cars (Ok yes, WRC is but they are not driving on pavement)? I bet you couldn't find many examples. Sure there are some great AWD performance cars, but just as you don't understand the bias some of us have for RWD, many of us feel the same about AWD. How can you make a blanket statement saying that those cars' performance would increase by 30% if they were simply AWD? If AWD was truly THAT superior, then why wouldn't ALL race cars be AWD based? There is also the matter of cost/weight/complexity involved to be considered when looking at an AWD layout.

And judging by what GM is able to do with the Vette, there is no reason to believe they can't compete with the best the competition has to offer in the RWD performance market. They just need to get better in the translation of the Corvette performance into a luxury sedan, as they did w/ the CTS-V.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by MiosoBosa

The sales numbers of those cars seem to have a lot more to do with GM not supporting them and, at the moment, not having an abundance of them on the lots.

I, for one, remember that the STS enjoyed sales that were pretty high considering the segment in late 2007 and early to mid 2008 before GM simply seemed to lose interest in it and killed actual production. The STS was always a conundrum anyway, often compared to the 5series in price but the 7series in size in my circle at least. It's sales were actually on par with the Lexus GS, Infiniti M, yet above the Audi A6 and Acura RL. Those last two models still live, but GM, once again losing interest due to a car not automatically taking the lead in a segment is replacing the long running "Seville Touring Sedan."

The 2005 STS has been a sales flop since day one. PERIOD. Two things:
One, since its introduction Cadillac has lost about 12,000, every year, year over year. And two, plans were put in place almost IMMEDIATELY after its release to kill the car a replace it with something that might actually sell.

Sadly, your memory is failing you, in 2008 the STS sold about 7000 few units then 2007. In 2007 the STS sold almost 5000 fewer cars then in 2006... Of course 2006 was off almost 10,000 cars then 2005... For 2009 we are now selling less then 700 STSs a month. Another loss of 6000 or so units a year... The STS's sales trends started out bad and then headed right for the crapper.

This car, more then any other in the stable is the anchor that is dragging us down. This car more then ANY other gets a huge F... If there was a letter grade below F it would get that one.

Originally Posted by MiosoBosa

Why?

From what I've been reading Audi is considered to be a top luxury brand. It has AWD/FWD bias. None of their cars are RWD that I know of. In reality I am lost on this obsession with RWD. I have tracked everything from Corvettes to AWD Gallardos yet cannot seem to come up with a reason why the bias exists. Truth is that an AWD Corvette, or CTS-V would be 30% better performers due to better traction capabilities.



Yes it is available though. The proposed XTS is being crucified for having the same choice available.

This has been asked and answered over and over. Because at GM we don't have a transmission that can handle more then 300HP in this configuration. And 300HP is the entry level in this market... It is NOT the target.

As soon as GM said this car was going to have a transverse engine, everyone who knew anything about GM knew that this was going to be a V6 car with at most 320 HP... No twin turbos, no 32V V8...

A freaking BUTTER KNIFE at a gun fight.

We have also heard that the XTS is drop dead gorgeous, well in America, a sexy body can make up for a whole herd of sins... I hope it is as nice as we have been lead to believe... If it is, it will get a C+ maybe a B-/B but with only 300HP under the hood, with all of the negative steering feel issues you get with FWD... it will never be an A.

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by MiosoBosa

I cannot disagree with your choice. I believe Cadillac is well on its way to reclaiming all around prominence in the Luxury segment once the ATS and XTS are released. The STS and CTS are excellent luxury cars and have done great things in returning Cadillac to the hearts and minds of luxury buyers. The STS still, in my opinion, could have been better, or more precisely, more on point with a stronger engine, extra size (both length and width) and some details reworked. It is my understanding that the Chinese version addressed 1/2 of these issues by being given the extra length and interior refinement, while the STS-V addressed my issues with the engine. My belief and hope, based on simple logic, is that the XTS will be a much better take on this segment.

MiosoBosa,

In regard to the STS for 2009 which was my purchase period, I was focused on the STS Platinum AWD and STS-V. I can understand your comments in regard to Cadillac's Northstar V8 at 320 hp/315 with comparable luxury models. However, in driving Cadillac's STS V8 compared to BMW 550i for example, both feel competitive with each other in street driving. The STS-V simply was so powerful to drive as were all of the comparable luxury modals such as BMW M5 and Mercedes-Benz's CLS 63 AMG and again driving on the street all were competitive with each other in driving experience.

From size a perspective, I never wanted the STS to get any larger. I did not view the STS as a competitor to the BMW 7 Series for example. I also read about the SLS and for my requirements the STS Platinum interior is beautiful and reserved. The SLS reminds me more of a limousine design and is intend to have a driver is how I was impressed from the photos. I liked the interior styling of the STS over the SLS in that regard, there was less wood treatment in the STS Platinum and that is my preference.

In my view, the second generation CTS is the size I would prefer and increasing its features and options would bring the CTS to a perfect fit for my requirements when the STS is no longer offered. And of all of the Cadillac sedans, I appreciate the styling of the new CTS the most.

The XTS appears to be a design to replace the DTS not the STS in my view. And I believe that is a needed model in Cadillac's portfolio, long overdue.

JLM

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

The XTS appears to be a design to replace the DTS not the STS in my view. And I believe that is a needed model in Cadillac's portfolio, long overdue.

That is a good way to look at it... The STS, like the XLR is being canceled without replacement.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

That is a good way to look at it... The STS, like the XLR is being canceled without replacement.

Two lost opportunities in my opinion.

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

That is a good way to look at it... The STS, like the XLR is being canceled without replacement.

2002 Caddy,

I would agree with you on the XLR. In regard to the STS being replaced, the CTS-V would be my selection. I was included within a very small group of luxury buyers who purchase V8 configurations in my luxury cars. And I would believe that is true of all the luxury brand model comparables, in other words, luxury buyers tend not to purchase the most powerful models.

I would suspect a beautifully styled XTS full size luxury sedan with 300hp and a six speed transmission will meet 99% of the luxury buyers in this segment. Most luxury buyers are not enthusiast such as I or members of GMI.

JLM

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by nsap

Rate GM's Handling of Cadillac

Last night several of us on the GMI Staff had an impromptu chat on AOL Instant Messenger and the main GM topic of it...Cadillac.

We are all very discouraged with GM's handling of the brand.

Back in 2000-2001 GM made the commitment to take Cadillac back to being the "Standard of the World" luxury car.

Speed up to today and we have a new, downgraded FWD SRX and an
upcoming FWD FLAGSHIP sedan.

On the other hand we have a fairly acceptable CTS lineup and an impending RWD 3-Series competitor....hit and miss is the best way to describe Caddy in our opinion.

Needless to say, most of us on the GMInsidenews Staff are NOT happy with where Cadillac is headed.

What is your take?

Use the poll above to vote on the grade you think GM deserve when it comes to

............................................their handling of the Cadillac brand.

Great topic nsap and good lead in.

" - their handling of the Cadillac brand. "


____________


Half of what went wrong with Cadillac Motor Car Company started up in the mid fifties and bore first fruits by '59.

The bulk of the important structural pieces were in place by '62 although it took until the 1970 - 1976 period for it to be fully finished off.

( Technically, a piece of that 'thought process' goes back to 1946. )

But for many, that isn't what seemed to be happening.

Cadillac became a cash cow that in essence sacrificed its future for a buck in the here and now.

It was highly successful at this thru 1973.

I doubt anything else ever done in this industry could hold a candle to the financial contribution that Cadillac made during this time on that kind of volume.

The introduction of the 1967 FWD El Dorado and the 1975 Seville gave hope and although met with both critical and financial sales success were not ultimately' the direction' GM chose to go with the 'Division' which right there ie the use of the word 'Division' could be used to sum up nicely the root problem for the Cadillac brand during this time.

The key issues seems to have been something along the lines of if something couldn't present the likely possibility of a 50% plus gross profit margin - we ain't going to do it.

________________


Btw, I really like old Cadillac s from this time period.

Its about 'the road not taken' - when GM at the peak of their power, could have done anything they wanted.

_______________


The strategic mis management issues from the 1950s and 1960s play a much more significant role in today's situation than most seem to realize.

That goes for GM as a whole as well as for Ford and Chrysler.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

I would agree with you on the XLR. In regard to the STS being replaced, the CTS-V would be my selection. I was included within a very small group of luxury buyers who purchase V8 configurations in my luxury cars. And I would believe that is true of all the luxury brand model comparables, in other words, luxury buyers tend not to purchase the most powerful models.

So they are replacing the STS with a car that already exists... Wow that is some amazing spin! The CTS, V or otherwise is not a suitable replacement for the STS. It is too small and lacks SEVERAL key options to play in the STS space. The CTS IS a great car, I gave it an "A", but its sales are slipping too.. Cadillac needs to prop up this car... When the new E hits and when Lexus fixes the GS it will be in big trouble.

The STS has been Fugly since 2005... Don't kill this car... FIX IT! It should have been fixed in 2007, instead GM made plans to kill it.

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

I would suspect a beautifully styled XTS full size luxury sedan with 300hp and a six speed transmission will meet 99% of the luxury buyers in this segment. Most luxury buyers are not enthusiast such as I or members of GMI.

Sure, if you want Cadillac to be more of "back to the future"...

Are we going after the affluent "youth market" or not...
Sure, octogenarians will buy a FWD 270 HP luxury car. They have since 1994...
But yuppies will not buy this car. Car and Drivel will laugh at it...
It will get tested against Buicks, the ES and other low end cars.

As I have posted before one of two things will happen
1) This car will be priced on par with the new Lacrosse and no-one will buy the Buick or
2) This car will be priced on par with the out going DTS and everyone will buy a Lacrosse instead.

Chaos.