American Axle Makes New Offer to UAW

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by sonjaab

Wage cuts are a fact of life with no trade restrictions from 3rd world
countries like china and lets not forget SHAFTA !!!!!!!!

The poor folks at New Process Gear now owned by union busting Magna
in Syracuse NY just got the 1/2 wage shaft and LIKED it !!!!!!!!!!!!
They had some wonderful choices:
1. Transfer to a Chrysler plant. Know of any that are hiring?
2. Quit
3. Take 1/2 pay and like it !

Magna made it quite clear.........Take it and like it or heres your 90
day notice ...We are gonna close the plant!
Not to mention they ran ads in local papers for the $14 hour assembly
and had THOUSANDS of applications to use as leverage............

When there's THOUSANDS of people willing to do your job for half the money, guess how much you're worth...about half. Same thing happened here with the American Axle jobs. Frank Stronach is a hero of mine. I'm was quite disappointed when his daughter Belinda left politics. I wanted her to be Prime Minister!

[gm world]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

When there's THOUSANDS of people willing to do your job for half the money, guess how much you're worth...about half. Same thing happened here with the American Axle jobs. Frank Stronach is a hero of mine. I'm was quite disappointed when his daughter Belinda left politics. I wanted her to be Prime Minister!

You just don't get it Uzzy. If the union accepts a 50% paycut like you say they deserve, don't you think that non-union factories will also demand them.
Let's face it if you make $14.50 per hour at a union factory, you can bet the non-union factory will want to pay $10 per hour.

Your job is no different, it will be a vicious cycle.
All of a sudden you have engineers who will work for $18.00 per hour.
It has to stop somewhere or we will all be making $10.00 per hour in the near future!

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by ByTheLake

Funny thing ... AAM's management isn't represented by any union, and AAM can cut management salaries anytime it feels like it. But it won't. Management's wages are largely market-driven, based on skill set.

If management salaries were cut in half, management would leave and go elsewhere, leaving AAM without financial/treasury staff, without IT and its automated supply chain systems, without the staff that ensures regulatory and export compliance, etc. Can't replace those positions with $14 an hour people.

Pretty much.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by gm world

You just don't get it Uzzy. If the union accepts a 50% paycut like you say they deserve, don't you think that non-union factories will also demand them.
Let's face it if you make $14.50 per hour at a union factory, you can bet the non-union factory will want to pay $10 per hour.

Your job is no different, it will be a vicious cycle.
All of a sudden you have engineers who will work for $18.00 per hour.
It has to stop somewhere or we will all be making $10.00 per hour in the near future!

Seemingly that isn't how it work in professional sports.

There is always someone willing to pay for talent (in baseball it is the Yankee's or Red Sox), and everyone else has to adjust to this person (you don't see the Royals paying good players nothing). Business works the same way.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by gm world

You just don't get it Uzzy. If the union accepts a 50% paycut like you say they deserve, don't you think that non-union factories will also demand them.
Let's face it if you make $14.50 per hour at a union factory, you can bet the non-union factory will want to pay $10 per hour.

Your job is no different, it will be a vicious cycle.
All of a sudden you have engineers who will work for $18.00 per hour.
It has to stop somewhere or we will all be making $10.00 per hour in the near future!

No, you don't get it. You think the companies are trying to make slaves of everyone. That is what the union beats into your heads, but they don't want that at all. They also don't want to pay some new kid off the street $30/hr to hand out gloves, but the strong arm tactics of the unions force them to. Why should a menial labour job be paid anymore than the minimum wage? Here in Ontario it is $8. There is no skill involved. I worked in fast food for $6.40/hr and that job was more difficult than most line jobs. By the time I left, I was made manager and made a whopping $8.25/hr. Just because these people are older and have families, they should make outrageous wages? There were some at Wendy's too. Not only that, but the wages are all the same. I believe in the tiered pay system. Do you think I make as much as the senior engineer here? Hell no, and why should I? I just started. I do the best I can, but he's still much better and knows much more than me. Pay increases should come as skill is gained, not just because it's been 3 years and you managed to not get fired. Explain why simple line work should get anymore than the minimum wage.

And if you think I make anywhere near double of $18 you're very wrong. I only make a few dollars more per hour than $18 as a matter of fact. But in several years I'll be making more than double that, I would hope.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

Seemingly that isn't how it work in professional sports.

There is always someone willing to pay for talent (in baseball it is the Yankee's or Red Sox), and everyone else has to adjust to this person (you don't see the Royals paying good players nothing). Business works the same way.

Right. Employers will pay professionals what they're worth. The union makes sure the same is not true for the blue collar staff, they get paid what they want. It's the only place in the whole economic world that works that way.

[gm world]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

No, you don't get it. You think the companies are trying to make slaves of everyone. That is what the union beats into your heads, but they don't want that at all. They also don't want to pay some new kid off the street $30/hr to hand out gloves, but the strong arm tactics of the unions force them to. Why should a menial labour job be paid anymore than the minimum wage? Here in Ontario it is $8. There is no skill involved. I worked in fast food for $6.40/hr and that job was more difficult than most line jobs. By the time I left, I was made manager and made a whopping $8.25/hr. Just because these people are older and have families, they should make outrageous wages? There were some at Wendy's too. Not only that, but the wages are all the same. I believe in the tiered pay system. Do you think I make as much as the senior engineer here? Hell no, and why should I? I just started. I do the best I can, but he's still much better and knows much more than me. Pay increases should come as skill is gained, not just because it's been 3 years and you managed to not get fired. Explain why simple line work should get anymore than the minimum wage.

And if you think I make anywhere near double of $18 you're very wrong. I only make a few dollars more per hour than $18 as a matter of fact. But in several years I'll be making more than double that, I would hope.

You can tell your a kid, do the math!
When I first starting working after COLLEGE, I did not work in a union enviroment.
What I was trying to say is that unions are what started todays standard of living, do the research.

If the wages go backwards do you think it will stop on the shop floor?

Let's face it, GM pays there engineers ( for example 90,000 per year) do you think if they can lower the wages of hourly workers that they will stop there?

I am skilled trades, if an assembler wage drops the $30,000, then skilled trades drop to maybe $40,000 per year, then engineer drops to $50,000 per year.
Can you see what I am getting at. It won't stop there.

I know people that have grade 9 education and they worked hard and are some of the most successful business people in Toronto.

So don't give me your crap, that because your an engineer your way is the only way!!

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by gm world

You can tell your a kid, do the math!
When I first starting working after COLLEGE, I did not work in a union enviroment.
What I was trying to say is that unions are what started todays standard of living, do the research.

If the wages go backwards do you think it will stop on the shop floor?

Let's face it, GM pays there engineers ( for example 90,000 per year) do you think if they can lower the wages of hourly workers that they will stop there?

I am skilled trades, if an assembler wage drops the $30,000, then skilled trades drop to maybe $40,000 per year, then engineer drops to $50,000 per year.
Can you see what I am getting at. It won't stop there.

I know people that have grade 9 education and they worked hard and are some of the most successful business people in Toronto.

So don't give me your crap, that because your an engineer your way is the only way!!

Show me some numbers! I had a simple request: "Explain why simple line work should get anymore than the minimum wage." You failed to even acknowledge it, let alone try to answer it.

[gm world]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

Show me some numbers! I had a simple request: "Explain why simple line work should get anymore than the minimum wage." You failed to even acknowledge it, let alone try to answer it.

Simple line work as you call it, is not all that easy.
15 years ago I would have agreed with you. The so called time-study experts have some of these job's so overloaded that they are hard to meet cycle time. These cycle times are fine for a 20 year old, but lets face the facts, as you get older it gets harder to do.

I agree some jobs are easy, but the company has outsourced most of them, or they are in the process of eliminating them.

I have a question, why should you be paid $20ph when you seem to spend most of your time on here. Sounds like another useless overpaid engineer!!!

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by gm world

Simple line work as you call it, is not all that easy.
15 years ago I would have agreed with you. The so called time-study experts have some of these job's so overloaded that they are hard to meet cycle time. These cycle times are fine for a 20 year old, but lets face the facts, as you get older it gets harder to do.

I agree some jobs are easy, but the company has outsourced most of them, or they are in the process of eliminating them.

I have a question, why should you be paid $20ph when you seem to spend most of your time on here. Sounds like another useless overpaid engineer!!!

I took a late lunch, I was busy fixing one of the machines. Now I have some time because it's shift change. Also, my primary function is to support production. With the AAM strike, production has been slow.

So then, you agree, most jobs are not worth anything more than minimum wage. And I'm not saying all, but many of them. And there were time studies done at Wendy's too. "Seven Second Sandwiches" was the goal. From taking out the sandwich wrap, to putting the finished burger in the done slide, we had seven seconds. Crown, mayo, ketchup, pickles, onions, tomato, lettuce, mustard, (optional cheese), meat and heel.

You say Unions were the driving force behind standard of living. I say they were also the main contributor to out of control inflation over the last 30+ years.

[silvergoat2k6]

Originally Posted by M_RABID

I also have several friends that are unionized and some have needed the protection (ding drugs during a shift)
====================

And here we have the perfect example of abuse of the union's power. Drinking or doing drugs on the job is inexcusable, and should result in immediate termination. The reach of any union should be limited when it comes to union members that break the basic code of conduct acceptable to a safe work envirnment. Period.

If I show up to my job drunk or stoned, I will be immediately terminated and there's nothing my union (UWUA Local 150) can do about it. There are also a few other things that can get us immediately terminated and we'd get no help from our union on those either.

[jeep2c]

Originally Posted by MrMax

Honestly, there are too many different issues to attack here, but I'll go ahead and join in on the attack on executive compensation. My stand being, its out of line. And don't believe the "market value" argument. Why? Because the people that determine "market value" are the same ones getting paid whatever that determined amount is. Which makes it fubar.

So then you agree that Unions are fubar because they band together to determine their own market value, despite the fact they're not worth that much to any other company in the world.

Now, I'll be the first to tell you that driving cars off an assembly line, among other things, isn't labor I'd deem worthy of $28hr. But it becomes a moot point when the livelihood of a 60+ yr old man/woman supporting a family is involved. Dare I try to appeal to the hearts of my federal GMIers and say there is something truly immoral about cutting a person in that situation to $14hr whilst CEO's who command failing companies are compensated generously regardless of performance?

First of all, just because some 60+year old man/woman has been inappropriately paid for the last few decades is not a reason to continue doing so (not to mention they are double-dipping with Social Security, and will likely get a pension from GM) Second, if all of GM's CEO's took no salary for a year it would be less than $0.50/week additional pay for each employee. Lastly, it's just as easy to argue that all of the employees in the union are being compensated generously (since they can't get a job with the same pay anywhere else) regardless of performance.

But I digress, because I won't go there. The truth is, management needs to take responsibility for GM's current situation. Instead of using the UAW as a scapegoat. Thats the key issue separating the two sides now.

The key issue is that GM management has already made shifts to pull GM from it's current situation, the UAW hasn't and it should be the scapegoat.

[03xtreme]

GM and the UAW can kill themselves, but eventually big brother is gonna finally realize how big of a mistake they made with "free trade" either GM and uaw can waste time fighting theselves into bankruptcy, and then hoping govt fixes it, or they can take down free trade themselves.

honestly the only reason standard of living is inflated is because 4 generations of labor and union work is being undermined by non union subsidized cheap labor from 3rd world and outrageous trade scenarios with countries like JAPAN. This would be a non issue if GM and Ford and Dodge were fighting with each other like they did for 80 years. Enter Japan enter, enter non union, enter bankruptcy.

IF GM and UAW were smart enough they quit fighting themselves and go fight politics together and change free trade and the massive dissadvantage we have with Japan.