American Axle Makes New Offer to UAW

[MrMax]

You didn't think you'd leave me out of this one did you fellas?

Honestly, there are too many different issues to attack here, but I'll go ahead and join in on the attack on executive compensation. My stand being, its out of line. And don't believe the "market value" argument. Why? Because the people that determine "market value" are the same ones getting paid whatever that determined amount is. Which makes it fubar.

Now, I'll be the first to tell you that driving cars off an assembly line, among other things, isn't labor I'd deem worthy of $28hr. But it becomes a moot point when the livelihood of a 60+ yr old man/woman supporting a family is involved. Dare I try to appeal to the hearts of my federal GMIers and say there is something truly immoral about cutting a person in that situation to $14hr whilst CEO's who command failing companies are compensated generously regardless of performance?

But I digress, because I won't go there. The truth is, management needs to take responsibility for GM's current situation. Instead of using the UAW as a scapegoat. Thats the key issue separating the two sides now.

[EldoFan]

Originally Posted by MrMax

But I digress, because I won't go there. The truth is, management needs to take responsibility for GM's current situation. Instead of using the UAW as a scapegoat. Thats the key issue separating the two sides now.

Who else besides Lutz and Waggoner is there to lay blame on (and who won't look like a sacrificial lamb) ??

To get top talent, sometimes you have to pay top dollar.....even if they don't realize their results in 5 years or more......I won't speak to Ford or Chrysler, because obviously they're not in as good a position.......

Take a look at what Waggoner earns.......and then go look at the salaries of executives on Wall Street or at other corporations. Hell, why not take a look at Bob Nardelli and how much he was getting paid while driving Home Depot into the ground......it's not nearly as outrageous as all the bleeding hearts here make it out to be......

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by Shawn Wuan

Most of my family work for GM and Ford, hourly and salary so understand both sides trust me, but to call the UAW COMMUNIST thats a bit much.

Much of mine worked at Chrysler and Ford. My dad is in sales for a Tier 1 supplier and GM is his #1 customer. I work at a Tier 1 supplier and GM is our #1 customer (which is why we've had a few unpaid "UAW Holidays" in the last few weeks). But facts are facts and they do not look good for the UAW, or the CAW as they prepare to shoot themselves and their employers in their feet this summer and fall. Unions and especially the UAW/CAW are almost the definition of communism. Everybody is the same. Everybody gets the the same. There is no individuality. Performance is no indicator of compensation. That is communism in it's simplest from. There's team playing and then there's union rules. Nowhere in the professional world do these types of rules exist, nor should they.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by MrMax

but I'll go ahead and join in on the attack on executive compensation. My stand being, its out of line. And don't believe the "market value" argument. Why? Because the people that determine "market value" are the same ones getting paid whatever that determined amount is. Which makes it fubar.

You forget that even CEO's have people to answer to. They are called Stockholders. They profit from the perfromance of the CEO. If the CEO does not perform, they do not get the bonus' and big compensation packages and eventually they get ousted if they can't fix it themselves.

Originally Posted by MrMax

Now, I'll be the first to tell you that driving cars off an assembly line, among other things, isn't labor I'd deem worthy of $28hr. But it becomes a moot point when the livelihood of a 60+ yr old man/woman supporting a family is involved. Dare I try to appeal to the hearts of my federal GMIers and say there is something truly immoral about cutting a person in that situation to $14hr whilst CEO's who command failing companies are compensated generously regardless of performance?

Regardless of performance? You're confising the CEO with the guy driving cars off the line. The guy driving cars off the line will make top pay regardless of performance. He almost has to intentionally kill someone while at work beofer he loses his job, because the union will fight to the death to keep him on and paying dues, and they will almost always win. If the CEO can't get the board of directors the money they think the company should be able of making, he will be replaced with someone they think can faster than you can say grievance procedure.

[mike's 01ws6]

Originally Posted by TruckMan

If I had a cushy job where I was overpaid and had benefits out the yen yang, I'd be fighting for my job too. Can't blame the unions for that. They just don't seem to realize that the gravy train has run out and they need to either wake up or get off the bus. GM is trying to allign cost with production and skills to keep competitive, or else the whole company suffers. Look at the airline industry - they had to slash pay to keep their heads above water. Those that didn't went bankrupt.

Personally, I have no respect for an organization where entitlement and seniority are more important than quality and productivity. There was a time and place for unions, but now they have more of a bully & entitlement mentality and I believe it's a matter of time before they're gone forever. There's just no way to legitimately justify the expense and hastle of dealing with them any more.

Where do you get that from. Quality and productivity is the best it has ever been in the North American plants. Most of the the big three's products are on par with the imports. If you ever look at the Harbor Report you will see that GM's productivity has improved almost every year of the last decade. GM has 5 of the top ten plants and the only toyota plant on the list placed 8th and it had slipped from last year. Toyota is also the one slipping in quality, look at how many problems they have had the past couple of years.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by mike's 01ws6

Where do you get that from. Quality and productivity is the best it has ever been in the North American plants. Most of the the big three's products are on par with the imports. If you ever look at the Harbor Report you will see that GM's productivity has improved almost every year of the last decade. GM has 5 of the top ten plants and the only toyota plant on the list placed 8th and it had slipped from last year. Toyota is also the one slipping in quality, look at how many problems they have had the past couple of years.

Why was it so low to begin with? The union has been around since 1935, you'd think it would have been at a higher level than everyone else all this time.

[NfamousZ24]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

Why was it so low to begin with? The union has been around since 1935, you'd think it would have been at a higher level than everyone else all this time.

Because GM bought crappy cheap parts mainly. Then the whole it wasn't engineered right.

You should see how many fixes we have to do at the line lvl to compensate for what was a design flaw.


Also Unions are ran very Communist way. I am not saying the people in the Union are Communist but they do go by the "Everyone" is treated the "Same" philosphy. Then you will some Union Leaders standing on a crate with a bullhorn spewing the Communism party. I guess that has happened at my plant a few times, But I haven't seen it in 10 years. My father told me to get ready for it again this Election year or after "IF" Obama gets elected. ( I hope not)

The way I look at Unions and the way I want them to be ran. (which I see my union starting to go more this way) Is to make sure everything is "Fair" for everyone. Also Fair could be if you don't want to show up to work then you are gone. ( like I said I am seeing this more and more) Then if you miss a day or two for personal problems, And have a great work record you won't get fired. ( I worked at Emery Worldwide where good workers were fired for something stupid. Just to get rehired a couple months later at starting rate again.) I want them to help out on Safety violations job speedups. (Speedups of course when they are out of line.)

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by gr8tfulfred

could you just laydown and accept a 50 percent pay cut without a fight?

Nobody would WANT that, but if your "fight" is just saying "no", it is the same as saying, "Go out of business." How much will you make then?

It's kind of like living in New Orleans pre-Katrina. You may like where you are, but when the hurricane hits, staying and fighting is just not a wise choice.

You may want higher wages (don't we all?) but you have to look at how much that job is worth to the employer. If you want more than that value, you may have to improve your skills, education, or training level, to be WORTH that money. A wage isn't based on what the worker WANTS to be paid, it's based on how much the employer is willing to pay for that job.

If ten thousand people can, and are willing, to do a job, but there is only a need for five hundred to do it, don't expect high wages for it.

I know, auto-worker jobs have been a pretty good paying field. But personally, I've thought for the past thirty years, that that sector was shrinking, becoming less valuable. Am I a genius, or was that just obvious?

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by CaptainDan

I know, auto-worker jobs have been a pretty good paying field. But personally, I've thought for the past thirty years, that that sector was shrinking, becoming less valuable. Am I a genius, or was that just obvious?

I'm pretty sure we're geniuses.

[prowlerjc]

Originally Posted by MrMax

Dare I try to appeal to the hearts of my federal GMIers and say there is something truly immoral about cutting a person in that situation to $14hr whilst CEO's who command failing companies are compensated generously regardless of performance?

It isn't immoral, it is amoral, which is what business is. It is competition; some win, some lose.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by prowlerjc

It isn't immoral, it is amoral, which is what business is. It is competition; some win, some lose.

If everybody wins, then nobody wins.

If everybody gets the same, no matter what, then why bother trying? That is the union mentality, unfortunately. It wasn't always that way, but it has been for a long, long time.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by johnny smallblock

.......Just because you would cut and run, don't blame others for staying the course to ensure victory.

Staying the course is only a viable strategy if a victory is possible. Otherwise (as any military commander will tell you) cut and run is the correct strategy.

During the "Dustbowl" years in Oklahoma, the farmers could have chosen to "stand and fight", and continued to farm their (now desert) farms. But no amount of wishful thinking changed the reality. They left or they starved.

[M_RABID]

I also have several friends that are unionized and some have needed the protection (ding drugs during a shift)
====================

And here we have the perfect example of abuse of the union's power. Drinking or doing drugs on the job is inexcusable, and should result in immediate termination. The reach of any union should be limited when it comes to union members that break the basic code of conduct acceptable to a safe work envirnment. Period.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by M_RABID

I also have several friends that are unionized and some have needed the protection (ding drugs during a shift)
====================

And here we have the perfect example of abuse of the union's power. Drinking or doing drugs on the job is inexcusable, and should result in immediate termination. The reach of any union should be limited when it comes to union members that break the basic code of conduct acceptable to a safe work envirnment. Period.

Right. He was a buddy of mine, but still that's crap. He should have been fired. Well he was fired, then promptly got his job back.

When I was a Supervisor for a security company, part of my nightly routine was to wake up the guards sleeping on the job. I had one repeat offender put a grievance against me for "sneeking up and him and trying to scare him." Also, the other unionized guard that worked in the same lot but for another company accused me of speeding through the lot. It was marked with a 20km/h sign. My Impala idled through the lot at less than 15. I think I woke him up too by accident. I didn't sneek up on him. I pulled up, flashed my brights, put the patrol car in park, got out and closed the door. The I walked up to his van and stood there to see if he acknowledged me. His TV was on, but his own lights were out. I tried to make out the picture on the grainy TV, then decided to knock on the window. I scared the crap out of the old fart, then he yelled at me for nearly giving him a heart attack. he was the Union Steward BTW. The only thing we couldn't do to guards in that poor excuse for a union was fire them. Sometimes we ended up treating them so badly that they just quit. But firing them for repeated gross incompetance was out of the question.

[sonjaab]

Wage cuts are a fact of life with no trade restrictions from 3rd world
countries like china and lets not forget SHAFTA !!!!!!!!

The poor folks at New Process Gear now owned by union busting Magna
in Syracuse NY just got the 1/2 wage shaft and LIKED it !!!!!!!!!!!!
They had some wonderful choices:
1. Transfer to a Chrysler plant. Know of any that are hiring?
2. Quit
3. Take 1/2 pay and like it !

Magna made it quite clear.........Take it and like it or heres your 90
day notice ...We are gonna close the plant!
Not to mention they ran ads in local papers for the $14 hour assembly
and had THOUSANDS of applications to use as leverage............