American Axle Makes New Offer to UAW

[mjd1001]

Originally Posted by Shawn Wuan

Yeah, I expcected you to say something to that effect. I don't know what the big sticking point is but I think A/A should offer something like a buy down like Delphi. I do understand they have to cut cost to compete with the compatition but I still say I don't like the ideal of companies getting rich off of the backs of poor people. At $14 they can't afford to buy the trucks there making the parts for.

I am not totally disagreeing with your entire post, but I absolutly hate your last line (the one the UAW has used many times before.) So they won't be able to afford the trucks they make the parts for? That has nothing to do with proper compensation for their job. Should workers who make the Caddy Escalade make a lot more than the workers who make the Cobalt becuase they have to be able to afford the cars that they make the parts for? How about people on other professions who may work just as hard (or even harder) for $14 an hours...they can't afford the trucks either but they work just as hard?

[ByTheLake]

Originally Posted by gr8tfulfred

could you just laydown and accept a 50 percent pay cut without a fight?

Nope, not me. If that were my situation, I'd consider working my tail off to significantly improve my skills, to make myself more marketable and in-demand.

That means short-term sacrifices. Night classes, weekend classes, maybe a trade school for those not interested in college. That means time away from friends, family, barbecues and bowling.

People can't rely on any company or union to be able to take care of themselves and their families. That's each person's responsibility.

[ByTheLake]

Originally Posted by Shawn Wuan

By the way I didn't hear anything about managment getting their salaries cut in half.

Funny thing ... AAM's management isn't represented by any union, and AAM can cut management salaries anytime it feels like it. But it won't. Management's wages are largely market-driven, based on skill set.

If management salaries were cut in half, management would leave and go elsewhere, leaving AAM without financial/treasury staff, without IT and its automated supply chain systems, without the staff that ensures regulatory and export compliance, etc. Can't replace those positions with $14 an hour people.

[TruckMan]

If I had a cushy job where I was overpaid and had benefits out the yen yang, I'd be fighting for my job too. Can't blame the unions for that. They just don't seem to realize that the gravy train has run out and they need to either wake up or get off the bus. GM is trying to allign cost with production and skills to keep competitive, or else the whole company suffers. Look at the airline industry - they had to slash pay to keep their heads above water. Those that didn't went bankrupt.

Personally, I have no respect for an organization where entitlement and seniority are more important than quality and productivity. There was a time and place for unions, but now they have more of a bully & entitlement mentality and I believe it's a matter of time before they're gone forever. There's just no way to legitimately justify the expense and hastle of dealing with them any more.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by johnny smallblock

Some people instead choose to fight to protect the jobs that they and their fellow workers have, instead of leaving their jobs, giving up their seniority, possibly uprooting their families, and moving away from the community they grew up in.

Just because you would cut and run, don't blame others for staying the course to ensure outsourcing to another country.

Don't worry, I fixed your comment for you. You're welcome.

And I don't want to cut and run, like I said. But I'm young, not long out of school, no girlfriend/wife, no house, no kids, so it's much easier for me to do so. Even if I do, I'll be back eventually, I like it here. But you missed my point anyway. They can't cut and run. There's nowhere they can run to and find the same pay for the job, it does not exist. For me it does, I'm an engineer. I can go pretty much anywhere there's industry and pull in at least, if not more than, what I'm making now. The American Axle workers cannot. Read the article, and especially at the end where it says:

The other big players in the auto parts business, including Delphi Corp., Visteon Corp. and Dana Corp., have succeeded in rolling back the more generous wages and benefits that the UAW won during the U.S. auto industry's better days, Cole said.

"This is the last of the big union contracts," he said. "Other than American Axle, all of the suppliers have competitive packages."

And also don't forget that when American Axle posted the want ads for factory jobs making the proposed $14/hr, they had so many replies they had to stop taking them. Times are tough all over. They're going to get worse before they get better.

[TruckMan]

Originally Posted by Shawn Wuan

At $14 they can't afford to buy the trucks there making the parts for.

Where's the logic in that statement? I work for an aeronautics company and I can't afford the jets that I'm working on. Should I join a union so that I'm entitled to more pay?

With those types of statements, I can see why they need the union to fight for their jobs. They probably couldn't find another one without the union.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by jkennedy293

I hope this thing ends soon. It is starting to really affect production. In 2 weeks, GM won't be able to produce any trucks. Can you imagine going to a Chevy lot and not see a Tahoe or Silverado?

Where did you get that bogus info? In one week they are shifting production from Texas to Indiana and Ontario. They still have several months supply of the trucks, they are not in any danger of running out for a long time.

[bow]

You only get the companies side on this forum. There happens to be two sides to the story. The corporate drones on this site will all march together under the corporate drum beat and in unison, will tell you that a 50 percent cut in pay is justified because that is what market value is. They do not hear the other side of the story, it matters none.

It doesn't matter that worldwide, American Axel is profitable, the US arm is not. Makes you wonder if the state of the American auto industry has anything to do with that. Since 1997 the CEO of AA has received 258 million dollars in salary and compensation, add all the other top level management and you get a mind boggling number. But that is ok, they are at market value for their jobs.

The union is the evil presence in this whole thing. It doesn't matter that AA has flat told them to accept the pay cuts or they will move all production overseas. If they union does not accept and AA does just that, then they can point to the union and said they did it. What an easy way out. They not only get rid of the union but also the few thousand white collar, college educated people that are also overpaid.

Market value holds no water, if that were the case then the American upper management is due a huge pay cut to get in line with the more profitable and efficient Japanese counterparts. American management makes 10 to 200 times more than the Japanese. What you are seeing here is how American corporations can close up shop, move over seas, sell out the American people and still come out looking good. I support the UAW on this and hope they can expose this for what it is, pure greed on the corporate level. The UAW is willing to negotiate, they did it with GM and Delphi. AA just wants it all and they are the ones not willing to bargain.

[ByTheLake]

Originally Posted by TruckMan

Where's the logic in that statement? I work for an aeronautics company and I can't afford the jets that I'm working on.

Now THAT's funny. Thanks, I needed that.

Good thing you don't make skyscrapers.

[Shawn Wuan]

Originally Posted by TruckMan

Where's the logic in that statement? I work for an aeronautics company and I can't afford the jets that I'm working on. Should I join a union so that I'm entitled to more pay?

With those types of statements, I can see why they need the union to fight for their jobs. They probably couldn't find another one without the union.

Lol I hear what your saying but we are talkin about the auto industry, not aeronautics

[EldoFan]

Originally Posted by bow

You only get the companies side on this forum. There happens to be two sides to the story. The corporate drones on this site will all march together under the corporate drum beat and in unison, will tell you that a 50 percent cut in pay is justified because that is what market value is. They do not hear the other side of the story, it matters none.

It doesn't matter that worldwide, American Axel is profitable, the US arm is not. Makes you wonder if the state of the American auto industry has anything to do with that. Since 1997 the CEO of AA has received 258 million dollars in salary and compensation, add all the other top level management and you get a mind boggling number. But that is ok, they are at market value for their jobs.

The union is the evil presence in this whole thing. It doesn't matter that AA has flat told them to accept the pay cuts or they will move all production overseas. If they union does not accept and AA does just that, then they can point to the union and said they did it. What an easy way out. They not only get rid of the union but also the few thousand white collar, college educated people that are also overpaid.

Market value holds no water, if that were the case then the American upper management is due a huge pay cut to get in line with the more profitable and efficient Japanese counterparts. American management makes 10 to 200 times more than the Japanese. What you are seeing here is how American corporations can close up shop, move over seas, sell out the American people and still come out looking good. I support the UAW on this and hope they can expose this for what it is, pure greed on the corporate level. The UAW is willing to negotiate, they did it with GM and Delphi. AA just wants it all and they are the ones not willing to bargain.

Pure greed on the corporate level? Give me a break.....

If Joe Schmoe can't go out there and find another job with comparable pay & benefits, you know what?? He might've actually been getting paid too much there.......that's not to say CEO's and other management 'drones' haven't been raking in more than their fair share........it's just the problem is, noone is willing to wake up and see that union workers have been doing the same thing!

It's a bitter, bitter pill to swallow.....but the sooner those in the union wake up and realize this......the better off we might all be.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by TruckMan

Where's the logic in that statement? I work for an aeronautics company and I can't afford the jets that I'm working on. Should I join a union so that I'm entitled to more pay?

They could likely afford a reg cab, short box 2WD V6 Silverado with that pay and still live a regular life. But could not afford a loaded to the gills Escalade, nor should they be able to IMO. My plant makes tensioners and for lots of cars and trucks, including my 2004 Silverado, which I bought used in August, because I can afford it. We also make them for the Cadillac XLR and STS-v, but even I can't afford either of them. But I don't make much more (if any more) than some of the people on the plant floor. Our plant manager can't afford one either. We also make tensioners for Big Rigs and busses. I couldn't afford one of them even if I wanted to.

Originally Posted by TruckMan

With those types of statements, I can see why they need the union to fight for their jobs. They probably couldn't find another one without the union.

Those tpes of statemetns are also communist, which is what the "brotherhood" essentially boils down to. If it were not for the union, many of the employees would not be able to keep their jobs. I can say that from experience in dealing with unions in several different working environments. From being a CAW member myself, to being in management at a unionized Security company to working as a test technician, then engineer, without direct involvement in union affairs most of the time. I also have several friends that are unionized and some have needed the protection (ding drugs during a shift) and some complain about the others that hide behind it. The union's job mostly boils down to protecting the lazy and incompetent. Though not all union members are lazy or incompetent.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by bow

It doesn't matter that worldwide, American Axel is profitable, the US arm is not.

Good point. Do you know what the economist's answer to fix that problem is? I'll tell you. The answer is to move the operations overseas to where it will also be profitable. American Axle is not a charity, it is a Corporation that has stockholder's to answer to.

Originally Posted by bow

Since 1997 the CEO of AA has received 258 million dollars in salary and compensation, add all the other top level management and you get a mind boggling number. But that is ok, they are at market value for their jobs.

Where are the numbers for comparable American and Japanese Corporations? I bet the compensation packages are comparable as well, at least the American ones. And I don't just mean automotive. I mean any company in any industry of comparable size. Then compare what the low level workers for these companies make. You'll find the American axle workers in the US are disproportionately overcompensated, not the management.

Originally Posted by bow

If they union does not accept and AA does just that, then they can point to the union and said they did it. What an easy way out. They not only get rid of the union but also the few thousand white collar, college educated people that are also overpaid.

Explain to me how they are overpaid, if they can find other jobs that pay them as much. The problem with moving everything overseas is that the white collar jobs inevitably move too. Eventually the research and development moves too, then the 3rd world countires are surpassing us at our own game.

Originally Posted by bow

Market value holds no water

You're right, it doesn't...except in the real world.

[tgagneguam]

Originally Posted by bow

You only get the companies side on this forum. There happens to be two sides to the story. The corporate drones on this site will all march together under the corporate drum beat and in unison, will tell you that a 50 percent cut in pay is justified because that is what market value is. They do not hear the other side of the story, it matters none...

You raise a valid point in this post, bow. American CEO's are paid much higher than their foreign counterparts, and I'm not so certain they're worth it. But, considering market value, and considering the less than stellar performance of a wide variety of CEO's, it sounds like the Boards of these companies, and perhaps more germane to the conversation, shareholders, are starting to rethink executive compensation. There are shareholder initiatives circulating in various corporations in which the very issue of executive pay is being raised. And I think it should be. Boards-often times filled with other CEO's beholden to each other-are too easily a rubber stamp for their fellow CEO's and their exorbitant compensation, which includes golden parachutes despite how miserably they may perform (Prince of Citigroup is a prime example of that).

Don't believe what the MBA's tell you; there is no evidence that higher executive compensation earns a company a better manager. "From Good to Great" teaches that simple lesson.

That being said, I think auto industry workers' compensation is under negative pressure, and all the foot dragging and complaining about it doesn't change the stark reality that wages will be headed south. That's not something to rejoice, but it seems that's the direction things are moving.

[Shawn Wuan]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

They could likely afford a reg cab, short box 2WD V6 Silverado with that pay and still live a regular life. But could not afford a loaded to the gills Escalade, nor should they be able to IMO. My plant makes tensioners and for lots of cars and trucks, including my 2004 Silverado, which I bought used in August, because I can afford it. We also make them for the Cadillac XLR and STS-v, but even I can't afford either of them. But I don't make much more (if any more) than some of the people on the plant floor. Our plant manager can't afford one either. We also make tensioners for Big Rigs and busses. I couldn't afford one of them even if I wanted to.

Those tpes of statemetns are also communist, which is what the "brotherhood" essentially boils down to. If it were not for the union, many of the employees would not be able to keep their jobs. I can say that from experience in dealing with unions in several different working environments. From being a CAW member myself, to being in management at a unionized Security company to working as a test technician, then engineer, without direct involvement in union affairs most of the time. I also have several friends that are unionized and some have needed the protection (ding drugs during a shift) and some complain about the others that hide behind it. The union's job mostly boils down to protecting the lazy and incompetent. Though not all union members are lazy or incompetent.

I can say that alot of the things you say are very true and I agree with you but I just think it depends on a persons point of veiw, I tend to look at things from the little guy's point. Most of my family work for GM and Ford, hourly and salary so understand both sides trust me, but to call the UAW COMMUNIST thats a bit much.