Wagoner to Obama: More Funding Please

[Ming]

In my post above, I'm not saying Detroit shouldn't get funding or subsidizing. I am, however, trying to point out that they had the funding to create a Prius-like vehicle, and the Big 3 canned it.

It's worth noting that the mindset in Detroit hasn't changed a whole heck of a lot since they halted the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles.

There's still the sense that they're going to the small car / fuel efficiency party kicking and screaming. The Volt is an exception, but one that most Americans will not be able to afford in the name of saving money (on gas).

And now people here are complaining about Toyota getting unfair support? The difference is, Toyota pushed the Prius even when gas was "cheap", while the Big 3 came out with one concept each and called it quits.

I hope at least a few people here finally see now why I was so frustrated with GM these past few years as they tossed an Aveo our way without much concern for the engine in it, or when they canned the Malibu Maxx after not advertising it much, or when the Colorado and Canyon came in with a whisper. My yearning for more of the cars I enjoyed in my younger days, like my Pontiac 6000, or Chevy Metro, or my Sunbird Convertible --- when all I got was riducule from import owning friends, and not much support from gas-swilling gearheads on GM sites like this either.

Yes, I'm a fan of GM's small FWD cars of the 80's and early 90's - especially the wagons and hatches. The same ones most GM fans here seem to laugh at or despise in favor of big horsepower and big profit land barges. Wouldn't it be great if GM had a lineup as jam packed with fuel efficient wagons and hatches as it did in the 80's?

The only subsidizing I think is warranted is a tax credit like the Prius got. The Volt is still not a cure-all. GM needs to impress us with a shocking statement such as that all 3 minicars are coming, or a Suzuki-Daewoo-GM small, affordable hybrid is on its way, or something along those lines.

No more token efforts with small ICE cars while hoping and praying that gas prices drop back down to $2.00 so they can resume building big trucks and SUVs.

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by markform

Corporate welfare for millionaires.

Same Chicken Little story back in the 80's. President Reagan smiled and said...no. President McCain will man up and do the same.

How does giving a tax credit for buying a Volt equate to corporate welfare?
Tax credits go to the person who buys the car, not the corporation.

If the government wants to shove higher mileage requirements down everyone's throat, then they should also "encourage" people to buy those higher mileage cars.

They should not give a tax credit for an import. The hybrid system should have to be 100% assembled in the U.S. out of parts 100% manufactured in the U.S... otherwise not one dime. That'll provide jobs and those taxpayers will help fund the credit.

If you want a tax credit for an import ask the government of the country where it was made to give it to you.

[RamJet502]

Why should we as taxpayers be forced to bailout GM? A company that makes terrible business decisions deserves to go under, that's cold cruel reality. GM needs to fix this problem themselves and I really hope they do.

[vanshmack]

Originally Posted by eaton53

How does giving a tax credit for buying a Volt equate to corporate welfare?
Tax credits go to the person who buys the car, not the corporation.

If the government wants to shove higher mileage requirements down everyone's throat, then they should also "encourage" people to buy those higher mileage cars.

They should not give a tax credit for an import. The hybrid system should have to be 100% assembled in the U.S. out of parts 100% manufactured in the U.S... otherwise not one dime. That'll provide jobs and those taxpayers will help fund the credit.

If you want a tax credit for an import ask the government of the country where it was made to give it to you.

I agree with you on the Feds encouraging high mileage cars through tax credits, as well as not providing any to imports, but I don't think your "100% US manufactured" hybrid system will fly, as I don't think even the Volt would qualify. I mean, isn't there a possibility the batteries will manufactured in Europe or China?

[T-Type]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

Why should we as taxpayers be forced to bailout GM? A company that makes terrible business decisions deserves to go under, that's cold cruel reality. GM needs to fix this problem themselves and I really hope they do.

Who said anything about a bailout? They are asking for money to do research that will not only help them, but the country also.

[Butz]

Originally Posted by windvale

I'm a conservative also...But why would you penalize the loyal Americans in Georgetown, Kentucky that build the Camry...and the American consumers ?

A Camry built in Georgetown, Kentucky is not an import by definition.

You could define an import vehicle either as a vehicle manufactured outside the USA, or a vehicle with more foreign components than domestic, anything with less than say 60% domestically manufactured parts can be defined as an import.
Or you might define an import as a vehicle designed and engineered outside the USA, I'm assuming the Camry fits this definition.

But if Toyota designed, engineered and manufactured a vehicle in the USA, with USA made parts, it is a domestic by definition.

[RamJet502]

Originally Posted by T-Type

Who said anything about a bailout? They are asking for money to do research that will not only help them, but the country also.

GM is a company, its not the government's job to help them do research.

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by vanshmack

I agree with you on the Feds encouraging high mileage cars through tax credits, as well as not providing any to imports, but I don't think your "100% US manufactured" hybrid system will fly, as I don't think even the Volt would qualify. I mean, isn't there a possibility the batteries will manufactured in Europe or China?

Well, I guess they'd have to make everything here if they want to qualify for the credit, wouldn't they?

And it'd be a very big credit, a deal that can't be refused.

If automakers want the feds to get involved then there need to be strings attached... the whole idea is to keep jobs in the U.S. and keep retiree pensions from getting dumped on the government. If they're just gonna give the jobs to foreigners, then screw 'em!

[Ming]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

GM is a company, its not the government's job to help them do research.

Who helped us build war machines when we needed the factories in WW2?

This is history worth reading for those who tout a Bush-style entirely free global market where manufacturing doesn't matter ("let 'em fend for themselves or die") and it's OK if the Chinese make everything for us:

Approximately one month after Pearl Harbor, the GM plant in Syracuse put aside their steady work of making automobile parts and began making 30 and 42 caliber machine guns. Later, their focus turned onto making jet engine blades.

The factories played a crucial role in the war, because the future of the world depended on the production of supplies and weapons (Carnes 737). Companies received government mandates to cease regular production and begin making items needed in war, including weapons, ammunition, packaged foods, uniforms, and military vehicles.

http://web.cathedral-irish.org/sites...s_of_WWII.html

I'm not trying to play the Patriotism card, I'm just saying you can't completely dis manufacturing in the U.S. as a non-vital entity. We will not be secure as a nation of Toyota car salesmen and advertising execs.

A GM worker helps produce a tank during World War II

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

Why should we as taxpayers be forced to bailout GM? A company that makes terrible business decisions deserves to go under, that's cold cruel reality. GM needs to fix this problem themselves and I really hope they do.

Why do you think a GM bankruptcy costs you nothing?

GM is the largest healthcare provider in the U.S.
GM is the largest provider of pensions in the U.S.

If they go down they're probably taking down a bunch of suppliers, financial institutions and who knows what else with them. You (through various government entities) are going to be on the hook for bunch of this.

Who helped us build war machines when we needed the factories in WW2?

This is history worth reading for those who tout a Bush-style entirely free global market where manufacturing doesn't matter ("let 'em fend for themselves or die") and it's OK if the Chinese make everything for us:

Bingo! Ramjet and his ilk would probably like to cut off veteran's benefits, too.
After all, they're not helping us in a conflict right now so the heck with 'em. What they did for us, that's in the past.

IMO, this is a matter of national security. Fund the tax credits out of Defense or Homeland Security.

[ericmvest]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

GM is a company, its not the government's job to help them do research.

Our Federal Government has been helping companies with product development cost for a long time. Our Federal Government paid a large portion of the Boeing 707 development costs because there was a military version of that plane.

There is a big economic and national security benefit to America for alternative fuels to be developed. This is such a difficult task that our Federal Government should help the Big Three with. The Japanese, Chinese, and Korean governments are helping their companies with battery development and we should be helping the Big Three also.

[RamJet502]

Originally Posted by eaton53

RamJet and his ilk would probably like to cut off veteran's benefits, too. After all, they're not helping us in a conflict right now so the heck with 'em. What they did for us, that's in the past.

That's rediculous, I'm talking about a short-sighted company that makes terrible business decisions. I want GM to do their own research and make obscene amounts of profits, but I guess that's too much to ask for.

[T-Type]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

GM is a company, its not the government's job to help them do research.

Explain that to the Japanese and other governments.

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

That's rediculous, I'm talking about a short-sighted company that makes terrible business decisions. I want GM to do their own research and make obscene amounts of profits, but I guess that's too much to ask for.

I'm talking about a company that saved our bacon during wartime.
I suppose you think the Chinese will support us during the next one? Maybe Walmart will become the "Arsenal of Democracy"?
Talk about shortsighted... look in the mirror.

[crooner214]

This thread is a mute point, because any money that might be funnelled into funding is being spent on the construction of the USA's resorts in the Middle East.