U.S. firm to demonstrate car battery 'switch' technology

[adplusone]

Thursday, August 27, 2009

Christine Tierney / The Detroit News

Better Place, a California firm dedicated to providing batteries and charging stations for ultra-clean electric cars, will demonstrate its battery-switching technology early next year in Tokyo.

Better Place said this week that it had won an award from the Japanese government to conduct a pilot project in conjunction with Tokyo's largest taxi operator, Nihon Kotsu.

In Better Place's vision of a future world populated with battery-powered electric cars, drivers would be able to recharge the batteries at stations -- essentially outlets -- at home or at work.

But when traveling long distances, for instance, drivers also would have the option of exchanging a drained battery for a full one at a switching station.

Better Place demonstrated its battery switch system earlier this year in Yokohama, the headquarters city of Nissan Motor Co.

(more at link) http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...ch--technology

[K-1]

How would this work if there's a warranty on the battery? I just don't see this whole battery swapping thing working out. They aren't a standard size, shape, weight, or chemistry. They'd have to keep a stock at these "switch stations," and at 400+lbs, that's a lot of warehouse space assuming there's lots of traffic. And what about the ages of the batteries? I wouldn't want my brand new one being swapped out for a 3yr old one at 90% capacity and lose any more of the already quite limited range.

If they can get the chemistries standardized and the size/weight down to a regular battery, sure, but I doubt that will happen. At least with hydrogen, you're filling up with H2 no matter what make/model you have. The same "infrastructure" argument applies here.

[CJ Thunder]

Originally Posted by K-1

If they can get the chemistries standardized and the size/weight down to a regular battery, sure, but I doubt that will happen.

50k AAA, problem solved.

Seriously it wouldn't be as hard as you make it out to be. Though it has to be standardized and the designing of cars has to work around that. So that might be a bigger flaw than the chemistry and type and voltage and amperage...yada yada yada...

If for example all GM's were electric than you could pay a monthly fee to GM for battery swaps. Up to five a week for the base package. I drive to a dealer or goodwrench (they are still part of GM right) get my battery swapped out I am on my way in 10 minutes.

Though it takes some dealer's an hour to do an oil change...

[njtex]

Sears is demonstrating their Tire and Auto Center technology to the Japanese? LOL

[nota]

Better Place aim to set up a functioning EV infrastructure in my city by 2012, and recently held a local demonstration of how their 'battery switching stations' would work.

On 'live to air' media they exchanged a complete EV battery pack, from standstill to drive-off, in just 90 seconds...

[eurohazard]

I am with K-1 on this one.....I know, it's a rarity. It's a great "idea", but I don't see it happening. OEM's can't even standardize current (no pun intended) car batteries, why would it start now?

[hrcslam]

Well, a lot of the design of EV battery shape comes from it's location in the vehicle. the Volt has it incase completely by the rest of the car, located right in the middle for safety, security, performance, and insulation. Try swapping that out in 90 seconds. Not going to happen. Every car manufacturers, any many different models from the same manufacturer, will be very very different.

For an all electric fleet of Taxi Cabs, this is a great idea. Just make sure you get back to the station before you run out of charge.

[377Z]

I think it would be cool if GM was able to develop an a family of electric vehicles that all used a GM standardized battery. They could then have a special area in their dealer service departments that would be dedicated to rapid battery switches for a fee. This way, the batteries would be GM only, controlled & warrantied by GM. This would be ideal for metro areas where there are a lot of GM dealers, and the electric car is the most practical.

Essentially you'd go to the dealer to 'fill up' your electric car. They sell the cars, & the 'fuel,' & this would be another opportunity for dealers to treat customers well & build a relationship.

[njtex]

I wonder how much of a KW/H margin people will be willing to pay a 3rd party when they can get the same electricity at home for much cheaper?

The ROI for a staffed fleet swapping station versus just having a certain percentage of extra fleet vehicles standing by seems to be questionable. For example, most fleets could probably save a lot of money by just rotating drivers into spare, charged vehicles.

[377Z]

I wonder how much of a preperation, cooking, & cleanup margin people would be willing to pay when they can cook meals at home for much cheaper.

Not clear on how keeping an entire elec. vehicle on hand will somehow be cheaper than just the battery.

A big part of the benefit of owning a car is that it is yours. You can leave your stuff in it, personalize it, insure it as you see fit, etc. Plus, swapping batteries would effectively be like filling up your gas car--much less worry for folks not used to the concept & limitations of an electric car & being 'tethered' to the plug at home, & very familiar to consumers used to gasoline powered cars. Also would side step the issue of no public plug-in infrastructure in the instances where they actually do have 4 hours to wait while the thing charges.

[eyekickbootie]

Wow. People have no imagination, do they?

How hard is this figure out? You go to what is essentially a gas station. You drive over a pit. An attendant uses a hydraulic lift to drop the battery out from underneath, and install a new one. You have a meter in your car that shows you the voltage and you are guaranteed a certain number of amp hours.

You don't own the battery. You lease the service. It doesn't matter if the battery is brand new or on its last legs, as long as the advertised number of amp hours are delivered. If you are charging at home and you think you have a bad battery, go down to the station and get another.

Think of the propane tanks in front of almost every convenience store and gas station nowadays. Fifteen years ago you owned a tank, and when you needed more gas for the grill, you went down and had your tank filled. Now, you just swap your empty for another tank. Same exact concept here.

Standardization is a key, but I can foresee the industry getting together and coming up with a half-dozen standard designs making the station's inventory needs much easier to deal with. Maybe some load from the side instead of the bottom. Whatever.

The real issue is that it makes it harder for companies to get a marketing advantage from the battery, because all batteries will be the same. Boo hoo for them. Build better CARS. Touting a battery is like touting a car having a better gas tank.

I am constantly amazed by people's resistance to the idea of electric cars. If there had not been the battle between Tesla/Westinghouse and Edison over whether the electric grid would be AC or DC, the electric grid would have expanded much more rapidly, and it would have gotten ahead of the development of roads and autos. If autos had been ten years later, or the grid had been ten years earlier, we would have been driving electric cars all along. Then the idea of shipping liquid gasoline to every nook and cranny of the world, and burning it in IC engines, would have been laughable.

[chinamonty]

You will probably find that a couple of systems will develop (to reduce costs) much the same as videos did and either they will both take off or one will end up controlling the market.

[K-1]

Originally Posted by eyekickbootie

Wow. People have no imagination, do they?

How hard is this figure out? You go to what is essentially a gas station. You drive over a pit. An attendant uses a hydraulic lift to drop the battery out from underneath, and install a new one. You have a meter in your car that shows you the voltage and you are guaranteed a certain number of amp hours.

That's a vast over-simplification, given the dynamics of a battery.

Originally Posted by eyekickbootie

You don't own the battery. You lease the service. It doesn't matter if the battery is brand new or on its last legs, as long as the advertised number of amp hours are delivered. If you are charging at home and you think you have a bad battery, go down to the station and get another.

If you get a bad battery, how do you drive that (now dead) car back? Tow it every time? This constant swapping increases your chance of getting a bad battery.

Originally Posted by eyekickbootie

Think of the propane tanks in front of almost every convenience store and gas station nowadays. Fifteen years ago you owned a tank, and when you needed more gas for the grill, you went down and had your tank filled. Now, you just swap your empty for another tank. Same exact concept here.

Except, my propane tank doesn't cost $20,000 and weigh 400lbs.

Originally Posted by eyekickbootie

Standardization is a key, but I can foresee the industry getting together and coming up with a half-dozen standard designs making the station's inventory needs much easier to deal with. Maybe some load from the side instead of the bottom. Whatever.

We already have that "standardization" illustrated today. Engines all have the same basic design: cylinder heads, block, camshafts, pistons, connecting rods, etc. But, can I go down to a Honda dealer and grab a new crankshaft for my Aura? Obviously not. If you think everyone is going to use a single (or six) type of battery, you're fooling yourself.

Originally Posted by eyekickbootie

The real issue is that it makes it harder for companies to get a marketing advantage from the battery, because all batteries will be the same. Boo hoo for them. Build better CARS. Touting a battery is like touting a car having a better gas tank.

The battery advantage is THE SINGLE distinguishing factor in EVs. You think manufacturers are just going to give up on competition? They're going to build in an edge to one-up. That's how you draw people in.

Originally Posted by eyekickbootie

I am constantly amazed by people's resistance to the idea of electric cars. If there had not been the battle between Tesla/Westinghouse and Edison over whether the electric grid would be AC or DC, the electric grid would have expanded much more rapidly, and it would have gotten ahead of the development of roads and autos. If autos had been ten years later, or the grid had been ten years earlier, we would have been driving electric cars all along. Then the idea of shipping liquid gasoline to every nook and cranny of the world, and burning it in IC engines, would have been laughable.

We aren't resisting EVs, per se. We're resisting the inconvenience of EVs. The battery exchange isn't going to work.

Originally Posted by chinamonty

You will probably find that a couple of systems will develop (to reduce costs) much the same as videos did and either they will both take off or one will end up controlling the market.

See my engine comparison above. While they all hold a charge and provide amperage, engines all ignite gas and turn an output shaft. Though, the parts are hardly interchangable. No one is going to give up the opportunity to one-up the competition.

[377Z]

Originally Posted by K-1

That's a vast over-simplification, given the dynamics of a battery.

If you get a bad battery, how do you drive that (now dead) car back? Tow it every time? This constant swapping increases your chance of getting a bad battery.

Like every other part of a car, a battery has a service life. Each battery could be tracked by serial number to monitor its usage. In fact, you could go beyond simply counting how many times it has been recharged, but via the vehicles onboard computer crucial aspects of the usage could be monitored--rate of discharge/loads, temperatures, etc. for a more accurate representation of the battery's 'state of health.' (Similar to the OLM in cars today) Once the battery is outside acceptable parameters, it could be recycled. The fraction of people who still end up having a problem on the road could call roadside assistance.

Originally Posted by K-1

Except, my propane tank doesn't cost $20,000 and weigh 400lbs.

And outside of that irrelevance, the concept is the same.

Originally Posted by K-1

We already have that "standardization" illustrated today. Engines all have the same basic design: cylinder heads, block, camshafts, pistons, connecting rods, etc. But, can I go down to a Honda dealer and grab a new crankshaft for my Aura? Obviously not. If you think everyone is going to use a single (or six) type of battery, you're fooling yourself.

The battery advantage is THE SINGLE distinguishing factor in EVs. You think manufacturers are just going to give up on competition? They're going to build in an edge to one-up. That's how you draw people in.

Think like a businessman. GM could take the lead have 1 or 2 standard batteries for its line of EV's, and offer the "electric fillup" at its dealerships. This would be the ideal urban/city suburban vehicle, where the trips are shorter and there are still plenty of dealerships. The competition can pound sand (& do their best to catch up).

Originally Posted by K-1

We aren't resisting EVs, per se. We're resisting the inconvenience of EVs. The battery exchange isn't going to work.

Of course it will, if executed per the above basic plan. The battery swap would be no different from a fillup, except the dealer would be the 'gas station.'

[K-1]

Originally Posted by 377Z

Like every other part of a car, a battery has a service life. Each battery could be tracked by serial number to monitor its usage. In fact, you could go beyond simply counting how many times it has been recharged, but via the vehicles onboard computer crucial aspects of the usage could be monitored--rate of discharge/loads, temperatures, etc. for a more accurate representation of the battery's 'state of health.' (Similar to the OLM in cars today) Once the battery is outside acceptable parameters, it could be recycled. The fraction of people who still end up having a problem on the road could call roadside assistance.

That's talking degradation, the OP was talking failure, I think.

Originally Posted by 377Z

And outside of that irrelevance, the concept is the same.

Concept and implementation are vastly different. The propane tank is portable, cheap, standard, and self-service. The battery is unwieldy, expensive, far from standard, and requires a tech.

Originally Posted by 377Z

Think like a businessman. GM could take the lead have 1 or 2 standard batteries for its line of EV's, and offer the "electric fillup" at its dealerships. This would be the ideal urban/city suburban vehicle, where the trips are shorter and there are still plenty of dealerships. The competition can pound sand (& do their best to catch up).

And when someone arrives at a dealership that ran out of charged batteries, what then? They wait 8 hours for one to charge up. Come on! We already have a solution to this problem: Voltec.

Originally Posted by 377Z

Of course it will, if executed per the above basic plan. The battery swap would be no different from a fillup, except the dealer would be the 'gas station.'

So, not only does the dealer have to stock cars and parts, they also have to stock dozens of 400lbs batteries and keep them all topped off and readily available just in case and keep the dealership open 24hrs just in case. I don't think you guys are thinking this through.

EVs may work for city folk, who never venture past the county line (though, taxi service would suffice), but most everyone else will need an EREV, which renders this battery swap argument moot.