Toyota building its own Li-Ion battery factory for plug-in hybrids

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by zete

The profit margin on most products aren't that great -- excluding software. When you take into account the mining, refining, and manufacturing costs the markup for profit is miniscule. And if the raw material costs go up it'll affect everyone.

And what Japan Inc. can or cannot do is also immaterial. Even Japan has a limited amount of capital and will most probably not subsidize lithium costs as it would be too visible and something that would result in a massive row not only with the US but with Europe and China. A fight Japan cannot win.

The purported subsidizing of the Prius is one thing which, if it happened, was most probably R&D funds provided as research grants into hybrid technologies, something that most Western nations do (see DARPA in the US, for example). It's another thing to claim Japan's gov't actually subsidized the production of the car. From what I've read it sounds like the Japanese gov't may have provided research funding to Toyota to research hybrids. That's no different than what a slew of US gov't agencies do (i.e., DARPA, NSF, EPA, etc.).

The specifics here are not the same as a DARPA project or more appropriately the Freedom Car Program and its immediate predecessors.

Just so we can clear that up real quick , name one DARPA project that resulted in a product or major product attribute for our three's production within the Prius 'developmental' period.

Thats right - nothing even close - as expected.

Japanese R&D 'programs' for civilian sector usage are very different than here.

If you look at sales data, and stay with the Darpa analogy it goes bad in another way - developed as a product for sale primarily in the USA ie an economic, industry specific weapon. One thing for sure. Its starting to' look' that way whether indeed it was intended as such.

Yes, I know the little spin story concerning how the Prius came to AMERICA 'accidentally' as a tentative , but 'daring' and brilliant' marketing experiment - thats just horse pukey although parts of it are true.

As to 'accounting' for the effects of 'purported' subsidies on production or they not mattering - it sure as heck does .............. if 10,000$ US per car in research money is more directly accounted for - for the first 100,000 plus of units produced.

You can chase the money around all you want but in the end w/o the Government role in 'funding' and other related but indirect 'assists' the Prius probably never would've been offered till much, much later - at higher cost.

Notice how every single other OEM including Honda who was 'ahead' especially on cost back then took a pass.

The other hardly mentioned aspect of all this was that essentially the Govermnet of Japan massively lowered Toyotas risk and possible cost of failure.

Give GM, Ford, and yes Chrysler exactly the same deal - watch what happens.

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

A loss is a loss is a loss, whether one division covers for it or not. It's still a loss.

X, Y, and Z battery company will be affected by raw material prices whether they are an independent company, partially owned by a consumer of the product, or part of the kieretsu.

That's the disadvantage of the kieretsu. It's not subject to market forces. If the raw material prices goes up, the company is still on the hook for the product at X cost, whether they like it or not. And the consumer of the product is forced to buy from within, even if the price goes down.

So if GM produces a better battery... Toyota is unable to use it because they have to buy from within.

I'll give ya the first part, but what do you think the odds of GM doing a better job than Toyota are...

I want GM to do better, but I've jsut become accustomed to the doing everything half assed. Kinda like rooting for the Maple Leafs...year after year of failure just makes it embarrassing.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by logansowner

I'll give ya the first part, but what do you think the odds of GM doing a better job than Toyota are...

I

Thats a gimme.
GM by a huge margin.
Two Mode.
Case closed.

[ghughes]

toyota only knows 1 thing- C O N Q U E R

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Thats a gimme.
GM by a huge margin.
Two Mode.
Case closed.

Praise Jebus...GM's problems are solved....2 mode...

[Wolfman01]

Not just 2 mode. There is also E-Flex, flex fuel vehicles, AFM, and BAS. BAS should be standard on EVERY vehicle built.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Wolfman01

Not just 2 mode. There is also E-Flex, flex fuel vehicles, AFM, and BAS. BAS should be standard on EVERY vehicle built.

Its really just gettin' started and nobody has quite the potential of GM.

Getting to that point is an accomplishment in and of itself.

The need for speed has increased

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by logansowner

Praise Jebus...GM's problems are solved....2 mode...

Good.
Now we have partial agreement.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by ghughes

toyota only knows 1 thing- C O N Q U E R

As they try and herd everybody to the door its gonna' get more difficult - the rest are going to push back that much harder.

A currency break the right way would just be dandy.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by Wolfman01

Not just 2 mode. There is also E-Flex, flex fuel vehicles, AFM, and BAS. BAS should be standard on EVERY vehicle built.

Let's not forget BioPower, BioPower Hybrid, BioPower 2-Mode.
Of course, you'll have to move to Europe to get one...

[steined]

GM needs to do this too. In essence, GM will end up building a shell and an interior and outsource the motor and batteries to others. I think that a GM plant in Mexico creating Li-Ion batteries would be a great idea. If GM could fund a 51/49 venture with someone else, maybe they could make them in the US without the drag of union work rules. The problem with the US is that, eventhough the congress claims they are "helping alternatives" they won't make it easy for companies to open plants like this here due to possible environmental impacts. Congress instead seems more interested in "pretecting the environment" and exporting jobs than creating an environment where people can prospoer.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by logansowner

But they won't have to worry about the profit portion of the cost, like they would if buying from a private company. If they own it, they don't need to worry about whether it loses money or not.

In the scernario you just described, the 'loss' would be shifted but not eliminated when the full Company report is put together.

Playing games with internal costs is not the same as eliminating them - or printing money out of thin air which is what all of you are suggesting - outside of owning the mines themselves which so far is not happening.

We'll leave out the concept of internal opportunity costs and their use until we get past the 'printing money out of thin air'.

Since some of or all of this is a joint venture, the partner signing off on this is extremely unlikely.

[HoosierRon]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

In the scernario you just described, the 'loss' would be shifted but not eliminated when the full Company report is put together.

Playing games with internal costs is not the same as eliminating them - or printing money out of thin air which is what all of you are suggesting - outside of owning the mines themselves which so far is not happening.

We'll leave out the concept of internal opportunity costs and their use until we get past the 'printing money out of thin air'.

Since some of or all of this is a joint venture, the partner signing off on this is extremely unlikely.

Toyota made, what, $11 billion dollars last year. It can afford to own a subsidiary that loses money if the result is another hit on its hands like the Prius.

It really can afford for the subsidiary to lose money if the result is GM losing money and giving up on li-ion cars. Think "next 50 years", not "next quarterly results."