Researchers Tout Gore-Tex Coating for Fuel-Cell Breakthrough

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by FBODYRULES

I hope the volt can easily be updated each model year for new battery technologies etc

Excellent point....I hope that some day the ICE is replaced by a fuel cell.

[jaydee]

[quote=edsuski;1489334]

Originally Posted by MisterMe

They have this stuff called water. Perhaps, you've heard of it?

The energy needed to strip hydrogen molecules from water is much greater than that needed to drive the same distance using a battery. No one is saying that hydrogen can not be made to work - but why would we want to use hydrogen in view of the fact that it will take over ten years and billions of dollars to implement the needed infrastructure and it requires more energy input than a battery?

Fuel Cell cars do not need 200 lb batteries as you stated earlier. The Equinox has smaller batteries that are charged off the FC for auxiliary, it does not power the electric motor whatsoever. Also, this country does not have the electrical grid capacity right now for even 1 million plug-ins (based off the brown-outs we see in the summer already).

Overall, yes Fuel Cells have more hurdles than plug-in's but it may not be as extreme as you think. You really don't need a hydrogen station every 5 miles to start implementing this, if you just have a dozen or so in the 10 most populated cities on each coast there will be a market to sell these things and it's not a huge investment for anyone if federal/state/city gov'ts, energy companies and auto companies all chip in to get them off the ground.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by XP300

Damn it! Now Al Gore is going to take credit for that too!

That he claimed to have "invented the Internet" is a perennial Urban Legend based on mythology that Gore/Global Warming haters love to parrot.

[T-Type]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

Excellent point....I hope that some day the ICE is replaced by a fuel cell.

That's the plan. The 'next generation' Volt is supposed to have a fuel cell.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by jaydee

Fuel Cell cars do not need 200 lb batteries as you stated earlier. The Equinox has smaller batteries that are charged off the FC for auxiliary, it does not power the electric motor whatsoever. Also, this country does not have the electrical grid capacity right now for even 1 million plug-ins (based off the brown-outs we see in the summer already). .

The Equinox uses a 1.8 KWh Nickel Metal Hydride battery with an output of 34 KW. It is, in fact, used to accelerate the car (i.e. provide higher levels of current than the fuel cell can deliver) and also to store regenerative breaking energy. Why would you have regenerative breaking if you were not going to use the energy to help accelerate the car?

As for the capacity of the existing "grid" to re-charge plug-in electric cars - the DOT estimates that we could re-charge 85% of the existing passenger vehicles and light trucks, during off-peak times, without adding a single wire or power plant to the grid. It will take a very long time to replace 85% of the existing cars with plug-in electric vehicles. You have to understand that recharging at night is not an issue. The brown outs you allude to had much more to do with Enron and energy manipulations and/or problems at a particular power plant and/or section of the grid than they did with an excess of demand and even then we are not talking about off-peak times.

Originally Posted by jaydee

Overall, yes Fuel Cells have more hurdles than plug-in's but it may not be as extreme as you think. You really don't need a hydrogen station every 5 miles to start implementing this, if you just have a dozen or so in the 10 most populated cities on each coast there will be a market to sell these things and it's not a huge investment for anyone if federal/state/city gov'ts, energy companies and auto companies all chip in to get them off the ground.

The best estimate by multiple sources is that it will take more than ten years and Billions of dollars to get enough hydrogen fuel stations in place to make fuel cell cars a viable alternative. In stark contrast - 100% of the needed infrastructure to recharge a plug-in electric vehicle and provide fuel for trips exceeding the batteries capacity is in place today at ZERO additional cost.

Oh and don't forget - it takes more energy to drive a mile on hydrogen than it does to drive a mile on a battery. The physics does not make sense. Maybe the fact that it will always be ten plus years away (and that we will continue to buy and burn oil from huge energy companies and the Middle East (without plug-in electric vehicles of course)) until we actually start widely deploying the infrastructure just might have something to do with all the "interest" in hydrogen fuel cells. Think about that for a moment....

[XP300]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

That he claimed to have "invented the Internet" is a perennial Urban Legend based on mythology that Gore/Global Warming haters love to parrot.

It takes too much of an effort to "hate' someone or something.

My comment was strictly for the laughs that most people get when they hear Al's name. Don't be so serious. Life is too short.

[prowlerjc]

Oh, so Al is the Gore in Gore-Tex? It all makes sense now! Global warming would slow the sale of inclemet weather clothes and cause him to lose millions. So he must fight global warming and keep sales of his clothing high.

How could I not see it?

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by T-Type

That's the plan. The 'next generation' Volt is supposed to have a fuel cell.

Wow that is excellent news...thanks!

[AMcA]

Originally Posted by MisterMe

They have this stuff called water. Perhaps, you've heard of it?

In places where they don't have water, hydrogen can also be reformed from natural gas.

Yeah, but water's pretty well-built stuff. Takes a boat-load of energy to take it apart. And that energy's got to come from somewhere, and might be more efficiently used to simply charge a battery. (Oh, yeah, and thre's the whole energy expenditure to compress and pump hydrogen into tanks . . . that takes another toll.)

[AMcA]

Originally Posted by edsuski

As for the capacity of the existing "grid" to re-charge plug-in electric cars - the DOT estimates that we could re-charge 85% of the existing passenger vehicles and light trucks, during off-peak times, without adding a single wire or power plant to the grid. It will take a very long time to replace 85% of the existing cars with plug-in electric vehicles. You have to understand that recharging at night is not an issue. The brown outs you allude to had much more to do with Enron and energy manipulations and/or problems at a particular power plant and/or section of the grid than they did with an excess of demand and even then we are not talking about off-peak times.

Last thing I read about this said that in the Northeast and in California the electrical grids are so tightly stretched we'd be well advised not to add any more load, off-peak or otherwise - to them. Not without serious upgrades.

That said, Ed, you make an excellent point: we're pretty much ready, with some upgrades, to handle using electricity for transportation. Hydrogen? Not at all. Indeed, I remain baffled as to why the major automakers keep throwing money at fuel cells with no good solution for hydrogen supply on the horizon.

[XP300]

Originally Posted by AMcA

Last thing I read about this said that in the Northeast and in California the electrical grids are so tightly stretched we'd be well advised not to add any more load, off-peak or otherwise - to them. Not without serious upgrades.

That said, Ed, you make an excellent point: we're pretty much ready, with some upgrades, to handle using electricity for transportation. Hydrogen? Not at all. Indeed, I remain baffled as to why the major automakers keep throwing money at fuel cells with no good solution for hydrogen supply on the horizon.

Just a thought for consideration.

I just got my electric bill for the last month. It jumped from $58 to $280. The only difference in usage was the electric Escalade my grandson drives around the neighborhood. He spent about 2 1/2 weeks with us and his 2 batteries were on the chargers all the time, along with his electric scooter.

His Dad, who lives in the basement does leave the TV on all night, while he sleeps on the couch, but that's no difference then when his son is not here.

What I'm trying to say is that it may not matter if the grid can do the job. What matters is how much is it going to cost to charge our electric cars for daily driving. If it costs too much with our current electric rates, why would we switch?

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by AMcA

Last thing I read about this said that in the Northeast and in California the electrical grids are so tightly stretched we'd be well advised not to add any more load, off-peak or otherwise - to them. Not without serious upgrades.

That said, Ed, you make an excellent point: we're pretty much ready, with some upgrades, to handle using electricity for transportation. Hydrogen? Not at all. Indeed, I remain baffled as to why the major automakers keep throwing money at fuel cells with no good solution for hydrogen supply on the horizon.

The grid has the capacity to power huge loads during peak times when people are using electric ovens, dryers, air conditioning and other household appliances. Off-peak, after say 9:00 pm, there is a tremendous amount of excess energy. The grid will have no problem recharging PHEV's off peak.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by XP300

Just a thought for consideration.

I just got my electric bill for the last month. It jumped from $58 to $280. The only difference in usage was the electric Escalade my grandson drives around the neighborhood. He spent about 2 1/2 weeks with us and his 2 batteries were on the chargers all the time, along with his electric scooter.

His Dad, who lives in the basement does leave the TV on all night, while he sleeps on the couch, but that's no difference then when his son is not here.

What I'm trying to say is that it may not matter if the grid can do the job. What matters is how much is it going to cost to charge our electric cars for daily driving. If it costs too much with our current electric rates, why would we switch?

Even though California has some of the highest rates in the county, nearly three times the national average, in California you will be able to recharge a Volt for $1.60 per night to drive 40 miles the next day. That is $11.20 per week or $44.80 per month (assuming you drove 280 miles per week - 14560 miles per year).

So we are talking about $45 per month vs. about $350 per month for gas for my 6 cylinder car for a net savings of $300 in California. Of course your electric bill will go up about $50 but you gasoline bill should drop about six times that much.