Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in First

[roteague]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

So you say. And so GM says. But it is just idle bragging until the car actually arrives. The LiIon battery still remains a formidable hurdle and could still derail the whole Volt project if even one test battery catches fire.

“We haven’t hit any obstacles so far for the batteries,” Lutz continued. “They are all performing flawlessly. It’s almost scary we are not seeing any problems with the batteries.”

From LeftLaneNews

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by Grymm

GM is screwed. Toyota is playing a strategy game and has played it well. The Volt is going to be prohibitively expensive, because GM is just plain greedy....

and stupid.

Toyota is going to release a vehicle that will have high mpg. Nobody is going to care how far the car can go without gas. GM is going about this all wrong.

All those years of being controlled by big-oil has turned GM into a farce.

If the Volt is over $25K, then it's worthless...

RIP. GM died years ago...they just haven't accepted it yet.

Either your word comprehension skills suck or mine do. I can't make heads or tails out of any of that. Did you just forget to indicate it was sarcastic, and you thought it was funny? Ha ha! You are just a laugh riot!

Or not....

[Chaz_23]

Trust me, there's no lack of Toyota brand loyalty in the US and especially the extreme coast states. People switching to Toyota to give them a try are switching away from the Big 3.

Originally Posted by fp115

Toyota still hasn't been able to build up a huge amount of brand loyalty. The majority of buyers have switched to Toyota to give them a try. The import brand that does have the best brand loyalty is Honda. Don't get me wrong Toyota has some but still not comparable to GM, Ford or Chrysler. What the public wants is something new, regardless of the brand. The Prius was bought at first as a status symbol (and in some cases still is), but now its the popular thing to do.

[CaptainDan]

[quote=mechgmguy;1496554]...... The point lutz is making is that the plug in prius and the volt are still on similar timelines and that one isnt coming out a year or so before the other one.....QUOTE]

No, I don't think that was his intention at all. I think he's saying that Toyota is racing all by itself while GM bypasses the whole plug-in hybrid thing with a vastly superior E-Flex system. I haven't heard of anyone else that is even trying to race the E-Flex set up. Toyota is trying to fool people into thinking that a plug-in hybrid will be the same thing, but it's not even close! But there will be a lot of people who are (initially) taken in.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by mechgmguy

this whole thread has gone way beyond the intended scope of this article. The point lutz is making is that the plug in prius and the volt are still on similar timelines and that one isnt coming out a year or so before the other one.

The other point (which im very surprised no one has brought up) is that the major advantage of the volt is the Li-ion battery. The pruis uses NiMH which does not hold the power of the Li-ion battery (and NiMH is also dramatically worse for the environment fyi) Hence why the range differences or 7-10 miles vs 40 miles.

Im not sure but I beleive that the plug in prius will still be NiMH and toyota has stated that they will be looking into Li-ion batteries, but they have invested far too much money in niMH to give up on it just yet. This is a marketing decoy by toyota to try and steal the volt's thunder, as toyota isnt really going to debut anything new.

The VUE 2-mode plug-in is due on the streets available to the public in 2009 (before the prius plug-in), but im not sure which battery system this will use (probably NiMH).

So this article is just Lutz trying to defer the toyota marketing machine from stealing the thunder away from GM...

The plugin Prius is very different from the Volt, you must compare it to the plugin Vue.

The Vue will use a similar battery pack to the Volt, Li-Ion.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by mechgmguy

this whole thread has gone way beyond the intended scope of this article. The point lutz is making is that the plug in prius and the volt are still on similar timelines and that one isnt coming out a year or so before the other one.

The other point (which im very surprised no one has brought up) is that the major advantage of the volt is the Li-ion battery. The pruis uses NiMH which does not hold the power of the Li-ion battery (and NiMH is also dramatically worse for the environment fyi) Hence why the range differences or 7-10 miles vs 40 miles.

Im not sure but I beleive that the plug in prius will still be NiMH and toyota has stated that they will be looking into Li-ion batteries, but they have invested far too much money in niMH to give up on it just yet. This is a marketing decoy by toyota to try and steal the volt's thunder, as toyota isnt really going to debut anything new.

The VUE 2-mode plug-in is due on the streets available to the public in 2009 (before the prius plug-in), but im not sure which battery system this will use (probably NiMH).

So this article is just Lutz trying to defer the toyota marketing machine from stealing the thunder away from GM...

The reason no one has mentioned this before is that your statement is entirely wrong - on two counts.
The plugins from both companies will use Li-Ion batteries.
You really need to bring yourself up-to-date on NiMH technology. Go to the website of GM's supplier and do some investigation on it. NIMH technology is considered 'green technology' by the enviro-set.

In the following paragraph you hit upon the very difference in the two approaches. It's what I noted twice above. The PHEV Prius will be an option, with new Li-Ion batteries, at a premium price intended for a small segment of buyers just like the Volt. However the thrust of Toyota's investments and production will definitely still be in the very inexpensive and ultra-reliable NiMH technology in order to keep the prices of the bulk of the hybrids in the $20000-$25000 range. You're right they have invested too much to just drop it. The intention, like the 2-Mode hybrids, is to make the NiMH's the basic, most cost effective, high volume technology.

[paul8488]

They may be different technologies, but the point goes to whoever has the first plug-in vehicle to the mass-market (I know that there have been other plug-ins in the past but they were all very limited in market coverage). People are going to go crazy over plugging their car in... I honestly think that the novelty of it will be a huge factor. Who cares what kind of batteries you have when you get to plug your car in? If Toyota's version is to fleets and in specific markets then GM still has a chance with the Volt, but I really think that the winner will be the one who provides plug-ins to the people.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by Chaz_23

Trust me, there's no lack of Toyota brand loyalty in the US and especially the extreme coast states. People switching to Toyota to give them a try are switching away from the Big 3.

You don't seem to understand brand loyalty... people switching to Toyota from another brand is a perfect example of it. Brand loyalty is when people return to buy the product over and over again.

[Chaz_23]

I understand it perfectly. You surely meant to say that people switching to Toyota is a perfect example of the opposite of loyalty. I was addressing your point: "The majority of buyers have switched to Toyota to give them a try... Toyota has some but still not comparable to GM, Ford or Chrysler." I'm saying that Toyota has plenty of brand loyalty plus plenty of new customers (switching away from the bog 3) with a good chance of becoming loyal.

Originally Posted by fp115

You don't seem to understand brand loyalty... people switching to Toyota from another brand is a perfect example of it. Brand loyalty is when people return to buy the product over and over again.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by Chaz_23

I understand it perfectly. You surely meant to say that people switching to Toyota is a perfect example of the opposite of loyalty. I was addressing your point: "The majority of buyers have switched to Toyota to give them a try... Toyota has some but still not comparable to GM, Ford or Chrysler." I'm saying that Toyota has plenty of brand loyalty plus plenty of new customers (switching away from the bog 3) with a good chance of becoming loyal.

You must have not gotten the meaning of that sentence. Honda still has a higher amount of loyal customers than any other import brand. Toyota happens to be at the right place at the right time with their products, people were fed up with US automakers from past experience. In some cases loyal customers. When a buyer switches over to another brand it doesn't make them a loyal buyer, not until they purchase their second vehicle. I won't comment on Toyota quality, but their past few cars I've driven for a few days were far from "fun". It had a load of annoying sounds, different feeling and not your typical functions you are used to finding. Yes people may switch, but they can easily come back if Toyota fails the first impression. Take a Camry and then an Aura or Malibu, in no time you will have the people saying the GM products are superior. But at the time they made the switch those products either didn't exist or were not known.

Usually when a buyer switches is due to a poor past experience and will likely change again at the slightest problem while switching. If GM wants to attract new buyers, it needs higher quality and better product perception, which it is getting with new products. Customers that have switched can easily come back (especially if they used to be loyal).

However when it comes to products like the Volt, there is no need for brand loyalty, since it is something that is dramatically different than what the rest of the market offers. You may often hear people say they will never purchase a GM car, but will say that they want a Volt. You will also rarely hear them say Chevy Volt. Brand loyalty depends on offerings as well as the customers.