Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in First

[ByTheLake]

Originally Posted by corvettekidc6

a plug in prius is a joke, thats like hooking up a chain saw motor to my bike so i dont have to pedal, and calling it the biggest innovation EVER, when there are such things as motorcycles and scooters. The Volt is going to be the best selling, most attractive, most advanced car that the american consumer can buy. No doubts, no nothing, just sales, and 40+miles of gas free travel to anybody who can get their hands on it

Mark Laneve ... is that you?

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

If the Toyota plug-in hybrid is cheaper than the Volt with similar mpg ratings GM is toast.

I fully expect the Toyota plug-in hybrid will be cheaper than the Volt. So what? They are nothing alike. Making the the Prius into a "plug-in" vehicle does very little for it, and isn't any big deal. It is just Toyota's attempt to "compete" with the Volt (which won't even come out for two years!) The Volt is an electric vehicle. That "plug-in" capacity is central to it's function, and helps it to a tremendous degree.

And the Prius doesn't come even close to being what the Volt (or any E-Flex equipped vehicle) will be.

[stick076]

well... my dad can beat up your dad!

Personally, I am waiting for the BAS+++++ v3.7.2. I hear that is going to be the best hybrid system of all. I plan on buying a Volt around 2015 so hopefully the BAS+++++ v3.7.2 isn't too expensive so my burger flipping paycheck can get one in the mean time.

[Grymm]

GM is screwed. Toyota is playing a strategy game and has played it well. The Volt is going to be prohibitively expensive, because GM is just plain greedy....

and stupid.

Toyota is going to release a vehicle that will have high mpg. Nobody is going to care how far the car can go without gas. GM is going about this all wrong.

All those years of being controlled by big-oil has turned GM into a farce.

If the Volt is over $25K, then it's worthless...

RIP. GM died years ago...they just haven't accepted it yet.

[espo19047]

Originally Posted by Grymm

GM is screwed. Toyota is playing a strategy game and has played it well. The Volt is going to be prohibitively expensive, because GM is just plain greedy....

and stupid.

Toyota is going to release a vehicle that will have high mpg. Nobody is going to care how far the car can go without gas. GM is going about this all wrong.

All those years of being controlled by big-oil has turned GM into a farce.

If the Volt is over $25K, then it's worthless...

RIP. GM died years ago...they just haven't accepted it yet.

I read most of your previous post. There is not anything positive to see.Why do you come here? Are you a fan of GM? Do you just want to stir the pot?
Nothing but name calling post after post. Grow up! I am a Democrat and you sound like one of mine. Blaming big oil and name calling is not a solution to anything.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by CaptainDan

I fully expect the Toyota plug-in hybrid will be cheaper than the Volt. So what? They are nothing alike. Making the the Prius into a "plug-in" vehicle does very little for it, and isn't any big deal. It is just Toyota's attempt to "compete" with the Volt (which won't even come out for two years!) The Volt is an electric vehicle. That "plug-in" capacity is central to it's function, and helps it to a tremendous degree.

And the Prius doesn't come even close to being what the Volt (or any E-Flex equipped vehicle) will be.

This thread is mostly aimed at the Vue plug-in, not the Volt. The Vue is what will compete with the next gen Prius, getting 20 miles at about 60 mpg.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by smithrobs

But the Volt blows the Prius away in the looks dept...

http://link.brightcove.com/services/...tid=1759811968


Link courtesy of GMSource.com

Yes but there is SO much hope here on these boards '..for a savior to rise from these streets..' ( to borrow a phrase ) and bring GM back to its rightful place.

The Volt won't be able to do this. It's a symbol, nothing more. Even if it sells 100,000 units in its 3rd yr it's a drop in the bucket. As 63GrandSport001 noted above the real fight for success is in providing inexpensive ultra fuel efficient vehicles to the masses.

By selling 100,000 units to the country club set ( Volt or PHEV Prius ) while losing the blue collar segment altogether to Hyundai, Honda or Toyota is a sure fire formula for continued frustration. IMO Toyota will have a PHEV option but that's it, it will only be an option. Its main focus will be on providing a $20000-$25000 traditional hybrid for Joe and Jane America. Honda is already staking out the low-end of the buying public with its $19000 hybrid that will get 50-60 mpg. Hyundai will have a midsized Sonata hybrid on the streets in 2010 - and it will be inexpensive. $21000 for a vehicle the size of a Malibu but that gets 40-ish mpg???

This is what attracts the buying public.

[MechEng]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

Yes but there is SO much hope here on these boards '..for a savior to rise from these streets..' ( to borrow a phrase ) and bring GM back to its rightful place.

The Volt won't be able to do this. It's a symbol, nothing more. Even if it sells 100,000 units in its 3rd yr it's a drop in the bucket. As 63GrandSport001 noted above the real fight for success is in providing inexpensive ultra fuel efficient vehicles to the masses.

By selling 100,000 units to the country club set ( Volt or PHEV Prius ) while losing the blue collar segment altogether to Hyundai, Honda or Toyota is a sure fire formula for continued frustration. IMO Toyota will have a PHEV option but that's it, it will only be an option. Its main focus will be on providing a $20000-$25000 traditional hybrid for Joe and Jane America. Honda is already staking out the low-end of the buying public with its $19000 hybrid that will get 50-60 mpg. Hyundai will have a midsized Sonata hybrid on the streets in 2010 - and it will be inexpensive. $21000 for a vehicle the size of a Malibu but that gets 40-ish mpg???

This is what attracts the buying public.

Well I agree to some extent and disagree to some extent.

In the short term the only thing that will save GM is making good affordable quality cars with class leading fuel economy.

The Volt will not save GM by it's self but E-Flex in the long term (if they can hold on) will. 5 - 7 years from now hopefully they will be selling close to 1 Million E-Flex vehicles a year. And buy then the costs should have come down to make the vehicles more affortable for tha average person.

[Chaz_23]

Whatever happens in regards to the Volt is not as important in reality. It's not as game changing as GM thinks and hopes.
- It will be expensive
- The people who can afford one are already Toyota fans
- Even though, they are in a different league, people will compare the Prius to the Volt and go with the Prius, because it's a Toyota.
So there's no reason to be all too optimistic. In terms of sales, GM rarely does well with new models. So sales will be below expectations and since they aren't (supposedly) making any money off it, GM gains little.

[minnfang]

Originally Posted by smithrobs

But the Volt blows the Prius away in the looks dept...

http://link.brightcove.com/services/...tid=1759811968


Link courtesy of GMSource.com

Thanks for the cool video - I hadn't seen it before. The Volt looks great!

I guess I'll need to get smaller friends- there doesn't look to be much rear headroom. (Common in a lot of new cars.)

I agree that the Volt is a big risk, but I don't know why everyone is acting like GM has ALL of its eggs in one basket. Both the 40+MPG Chevy Cruze and BAS+ should be around by the time the Volt is in full production.

I've read that BAS+ is a lot better than BAS, and will bring their mild hybrids to the value point that GM was hoping to hit with gen 1 BAS.

Actually, BAS+ might make a perfect compliment to the turbo 1.4L engine if and when it's placed in heavier vehicles. It could give it some extra punch off the line.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

If the Toyota plug-in hybrid is cheaper than the Volt with similar mpg ratings GM is toast.

Not to me, I won't buy a Toyota. I'll take the Volt even if it costs more or doesn't get better fuel economy. It's a matter of principle to me.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by Chaz_23

Whatever happens in regards to the Volt is not as important in reality. It's not as game changing as GM thinks and hopes.
- It will be expensive
- The people who can afford one are already Toyota fans
- Even though, they are in a different league, people will compare the Prius to the Volt and go with the Prius, because it's a Toyota.
So there's no reason to be all too optimistic. In terms of sales, GM rarely does well with new models. So sales will be below expectations and since they aren't (supposedly) making any money off it, GM gains little.

Toyota still hasn't been able to build up a huge amount of brand loyalty. The majority of buyers have switched to Toyota to give them a try. The import brand that does have the best brand loyalty is Honda. Don't get me wrong Toyota has some but still not comparable to GM, Ford or Chrysler. What the public wants is something new, regardless of the brand. The Prius was bought at first as a status symbol (and in some cases still is), but now its the popular thing to do.

Volt will be something completely new with other automakers not being able to match up to Volt's initial specs or warranty figures. The first lot of models will be sold to those very much willing to decrease their dependence on oil while others will do it for popularity, that will be more than enough to sell all models for the first 3 years, even priced at $35k. Paying a few cents for 40 miles instead of paying $4-6 will certainly open up the eyes to the average commuter.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by minnfang

Thanks for the cool video - I hadn't seen it before. The Volt looks great!

I guess I'll need to get smaller friends- there doesn't look to be much rear headroom. (Common in a lot of new cars.)

I agree that the Volt is a big risk, but I don't know why everyone is acting like GM has ALL of its eggs in one basket. Both the 40+MPG Chevy Cruze and BAS+ should be around by the time the Volt is in full production.

I've read that BAS+ is a lot better than BAS, and will bring their mild hybrids to the value point that GM was hoping to hit with gen 1 BAS.

Actually, BAS+ might make a perfect compliment to the turbo 1.4L engine if and when it's placed in heavier vehicles. It could give it some extra punch off the line.

There should be close to 7-8 new vehicle launches around the Volt launch.

[mechgmguy]

this whole thread has gone way beyond the intended scope of this article. The point lutz is making is that the plug in prius and the volt are still on similar timelines and that one isnt coming out a year or so before the other one.

The other point (which im very surprised no one has brought up) is that the major advantage of the volt is the Li-ion battery. The pruis uses NiMH which does not hold the power of the Li-ion battery (and NiMH is also dramatically worse for the environment fyi) Hence why the range differences or 7-10 miles vs 40 miles.

Im not sure but I beleive that the plug in prius will still be NiMH and toyota has stated that they will be looking into Li-ion batteries, but they have invested far too much money in niMH to give up on it just yet. This is a marketing decoy by toyota to try and steal the volt's thunder, as toyota isnt really going to debut anything new.

The VUE 2-mode plug-in is due on the streets available to the public in 2009 (before the prius plug-in), but im not sure which battery system this will use (probably NiMH).

So this article is just Lutz trying to defer the toyota marketing machine from stealing the thunder away from GM...

[BGH]

How do you guys know what the Prius is going to get? And what makes you think the 4000lb+ vue is going to beat its fuel economy even with a plug in system?

And everyone talks about the Volt as being an electric vehicle with gas engine generator.

Doesn't that mean Honda beat both of them with the FCX? It has three electric motors that power the vehicle and the hydrogen system that generates the energy. Is it out of the question Honda can change things up and get one of its 4 cylinders in there? I don't think it is.

If this is the case, Honda could just be waiting for the batteries and market reaction. They're already getting the good press by being the first to "sell" a hydrogen car. And a few celebs have picked one up and will be showing it off in no time.

Honda's marketing it just like their other cars.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/