Lutz: "Don't tell me how to make an E-car"

[ColoradoZQ8]

Originally Posted by TORRED1

First generation $80k (EV1) Second generation $40k (volt), 3rd gen ???? $20k or less, the price of technology does come down.

+1
Most of the critics of this thread fail to understand the concept of economies of scale.
I'm happy at least someone besides me knows the concept.

[ColoradoZQ8]

Originally Posted by megeebee

How do you know any of this? You think GM has everything required to build this decade-old design, including the plant capacity and supplier base, to just flip a switch and start selling them by, oh I don't know, next Thursday???

Really? How are sales of the Honda INSIGHT?



Oh that's right. They're zero !!!!!

Honda stopped making them! How's that for:

Why aren't you at some Honda forum calling for the retirement of their CEO???

The only .... that I smell, is coming from you.

An American automaker is actually trying to change the world and produce a viable, practical, electrically powered vehicle for mass production and sale to the largest number of people possible. Instead of pride at the attempt and support of those involved, all I ever read is the smug condecension of the uneducated know-it-all.

Apples to oranges.
The Insight was a gas-electric hybrid -- the EV1 is a totally different car, a pure electric car.
With the gas powertrain, the Insight is excluded from the NEV class. The EV1 design was ideally suited to be an NEV.

By simply reclassifying the EV1 as a NEV -- and limiting its top speed. The car would have needed no engineering changes to remain viable... and that Billion dollars they spent wouldn't have been such a waste. Plus, they wouldn't have spent another quarter of a billion on disposal costs crushing the existing EV1 cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighbo...ectric_vehicle

Some states allow NEVs to operate at up to 45 mph. With all the engineering that went into the EV1, it remain a best-in-class offering for a NEV.

Its just another example of GM's short-sighted planning.

Sorry, you argument is totally flawed. There is no way to justify such a boneheaded decision. Its just a GM blunder.

....and the Chevy Volt is no excuse for Bob Lutz to act like a idiot every chance he gets.
If the Volt is really is priced at $40,000 as predicted by Lutz -- then it will never "be a viable, practical, electrically powered vehicle for mass production and sale to the largest number of people possible." Because hybrid owners will be buying the $25,000 Toyota Prius instead.

[ColoradoZQ8]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

Do you know the cost it would be to do that?

Also do you know those vehicles ALREADY exist, have you ever seen a GEM vehicle?

EV1 would cost more than GEM and thus no one would buy them.

Seriously some of you are functionally retarded.

Funny, Telsa is sold out for the next two years of its pure electric car.
And they are now selling for around $90,000 a pop.

As for your "retarded" quote -- A wise man once said, "It takes one to know one."

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by ColoradoZQ8

Funny, Telsa is sold out for the next two years of its pure electric car.
And they are now selling for around $90,000 a pop.

As for your "retarded" quote -- A wise man once said, "It takes one to know one."

Look at the buyers...then look at their income.
Think you can afford a Tesla? Think the normal, hard-working, everyday man can afford a $90,000 car? I think I'd save more money using gas.

[ColoradoZQ8]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

If Lutz's decision is a load of crap, then the quoted post is a crock of ****.

His "lack of insight" brought on the Malibu, CTS, Lambdas, and the Volt. What more do you want from the guy? If anything, he's saved GM from a lineup full of bland, boring rebadges.
And 35 MPH? We'd sell maybe a hundred of them to the local country club to replace golf carts. No municipality is going to buy a car that only goes 35 MPH, even for neighborhood use. What if the need arises to go above 35 MPH, say an emergency situation? Picture if you will, a police officer patrolling a neighborhood in one of these things. Suddenly, a wanted pedophile speeds past with two kidnapped kids. Oops. Cop can't chase after him, his car only goes 35 MPH.
People need to give Lutz more credit than they do. He's not stupid. Furthermore, the guy has a much better sense of the company and its products than any of us do.
Jesus Christ. It's posts like this that make me wonder what would happen if others were in charge of GM. A sickening feeling rises.

Malibu = Good.
CTS = Great.
Lambdas = only one sells, the other rebadges are sitting on lots.
Volt = Non-existent, thus far.

Do you realize how many police departments are now switching to Mountain Bikes (as in unpowered)? Seriously, your argument holds no water. That's why they invented a police radio.

Lutz ran Chrysler into the ground -- now he's doing the same for GM.
If he spent more time doing product planning and less time with the media -- the company would be doing better.

Colleges, Cities, Government Agencies and more are buying so many NEVs, demand is outpacing supply:

http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...6-44d2c040bca9
http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/p.../BIZ/806010364
http://www.kren.com/Global/Story.asp?S=8561177

[plane]

Originally Posted by ColoradoZQ8

If the Volt is really is priced at $40,000 as predicted by Lutz -- then it will never "be a viable, practical, electrically powered vehicle for mass production and sale to the largest number of people possible." Because hybrid owners will be buying the $25,000 Toyota Prius instead.

Um. no.
Up until 2008, the Prius never made economic sense for anyone.
The reason the Prius sold was environmental consciousness and a whole lot of star power.

The Volt design trumps the Prius in about every way conceivable.
Hollywood will line up behind the Volt quicker than Britney Spears on a cheeseburger.

At $40K fter the government kicks in $5-7K we're at $33-35K.
Subtract $25-75 a week for gasoline that you're not buying.
That's $1,300 to $3,900/year you're not spending.

Over a 5 year period, at the high end,
you've saved over half the cost of your Volt.
You've saved the environment and saved money doing so.

[ColoradoZQ8]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Look at the buyers...then look at their income.
Think you can afford a Tesla? Think the normal, hard-working, everyday man can afford a $90,000 car? I think I'd save more money using gas.

Do you realize how many celebs drove EV1s?
Tesla is serving the market GM abandoned.... If GM was going to go half-hearted into the electric car market, then they shouldn't have bothered..... that would have saved GM stockholders (like myself) over 1 billion in engineering and production costs.

Electric powered vehicles are far more simple than Gas or Hybrids. The majority of the cost is the battery. If GM only built 800 Chevy Cobalts -- they would have also cost $80,000 each. Its all economies of scale. Lutz is too busy making excuses instead of delivering results.
What's GM's market value now? What was GM's market value when they hired Lutz? Let's not even go there.

[ColoradoZQ8]

Originally Posted by plane

Um. no.
Up until 2008, the Prius never made economic sense for anyone.
The reason the Prius sold was environmental consciousness and a whole lot of star power.

The Volt design trumps the Prius in about every way conceivable.
Hollywood will line up behind the Volt quicker than Britney Spears on a cheeseburger.

At $40K fter the government kicks in $5-7K we're at $33-35K.
Subtract $25-75 a week for gasoline that you're not buying.
That's $1,300 to $3,900/year you're not spending.

Over a 5 year period, at the high end,
you've saved over half the cost of your Volt.
You've saved the environment and saved money doing so.

Seriously, the Prius has a 10 year head start in the hybrid market. Do you really think the tree huggers are going to abandon Toyota en mass? Doubtful, very doubtful.

Your also assuming that Toyota hasn't already planned for the Volt's release -- or doesn't have a next-gen Prius waiting.... Considering how long GM has been bragging about the Volt.... Doubtful, very doubtful.

Or the fact that the same audience that they are trying to appeal to with the Volt -- are probably still ticked over the EV1 debacle.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by ColoradoZQ8

Malibu = Good.
CTS = Great.
Lambdas = only one sells, the other rebadges are sitting on lots.
Volt = Non-existent, thus far.

Do you realize how many police departments are now switching to Mountain Bikes (as in unpowered)? Seriously, your argument holds no water. That's why they invented a police radio.

Lutz ran Chrysler into the ground -- now he's doing the same for GM.
If he spent more time doing product planning and less time with the media -- the company would be doing better.

Colleges, Cities, Government Agencies and more are buying so many NEVs, demand is outpacing supply:

http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...6-44d2c040bca9
http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/p.../BIZ/806010364
http://www.kren.com/Global/Story.asp?S=8561177

Goddamn, what is it going to take to pound into your stubborn heads that the Volt is indeed on schedule for 2010? I swear to God, VCDJ must be messaging people on the side, I can't figure out why people won't accept that fact!
Okay, so you're saying that it's all right to wait a few minutes before police can catch a criminal? Is it not better for the officer to be able to immediately pursue the guy? If that doesn't work for you, then let's say a tornado suddenly touches down and starts coming the cop's way. Oops. Looks like he's dead. I guess the police radio can record his dying screams.
Lutz is running GM into the ground, yet you like the Malibu/CTS? Hint: If it weren't for him, we wouldn't have either car, every car would be a goddamned rebadge, there wouldn't be a Volt coming in 2010, and GM would be dead.
All three of the articles you posted talked about the same company doing the same thing. I don't see any production figures, no sales figures...I also found it quite ironic that "golf cart" was mentioned so much...

[plane]

Originally Posted by ColoradoZQ8

Seriously, the Prius has a 10 year head start in the hybrid market. Do you really think the tree huggers are going to abandon Toyota en mass? Doubtful, very doubtful.

Your also assuming that Toyota hasn't already planned for the Volt's release -- or doesn't have a next-gen Prius waiting.... Considering how long GM has been bragging about the Volt.... Doubtful, very doubtful.

No, I'm pretty sure you are the one assuming all over the place.
Toyota will have a competitive response. That's a given.
That people won't flock to the Volt? Please.
Britney Spears and a cheeseburger.

And this may be a big surprise for you -
GM was making hybrids years before Toyota.

I'm willing to drive a Volt at $40K without even blinking.
I know many others who will as well.
Your thesis was that $25K trumps $40K making the Volt unaffordable for the masses.

That is simply incorrect.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by ColoradoZQ8

Seriously, the Prius has a 10 year head start in the hybrid market. Do you really think the tree huggers are going to abandon Toyota en mass? Doubtful, very doubtful.

Your also assuming that Toyota hasn't already planned for the Volt's release -- or doesn't have a next-gen Prius waiting.... Considering how long GM has been bragging about the Volt.... Doubtful, very doubtful.

Or the fact that the same audience that they are trying to appeal to with the Volt -- are probably still ticked over the EV1 debacle.

The only concern of the environmentalists is to find a car that will not produce any harmful emissions. Hmm...prius=hybrid...hybrid=emissions. Volt=electric car with 40 mile range...40 miles with no emissions. Yup.
We would already have seen spy pics and the such, insiders would have already reported it. Why is toyota badmouthing the Volt so much? Because they're obviously unprepared for it. Plus, a plug-in prius is not the same as a Volt.
I would say that the audience GM's trying to appeal to are everyday commuters. I already know a quite a few people who are interested in buying one when it comes out, all need to commute to and from work. And I seriously doubt they're in it for the "no emissions" thing, since one of them drives a BMW M5.

[ColoradoZQ8]

Originally Posted by plane

No, I'm pretty sure you are the one assuming all over the place.
Toyota will have a competitive response. That's a given.
That people won't flock to the Volt? Please.
Britney Spears and a cheeseburger.

And this may be a big surprise for you -
GM was making hybrids years before Toyota.

I'm willing to drive a Volt at $40K without even blinking.
I know many others who will as well.
Your thesis was that $25K trumps $40K making the Volt unaffordable for the masses.

That is simply incorrect.

$40,000 is unattainable for the majority of buyers -- the average new car transaction is half that.

I'm middle class -- I can't afford to spend $40k on a car.
I can afford = the average new car transaction. The Prius MSRP is really close to that figure.

I know GM has been making hybrids (locomotives) long before Toyota -- but the general public does not know nor would they likely believe it (let's not even mention the media bias).

BetaMAX was better than VHS.
Which one won? The cheaper one.

[ColoradoZQ8]

Originally Posted by plane

No, I'm pretty sure you are the one assuming all over the place.
Toyota will have a competitive response. That's a given.
That people won't flock to the Volt? Please.
Britney Spears and a cheeseburger.

And this may be a big surprise for you -
GM was making hybrids years before Toyota.

I'm willing to drive a Volt at $40K without even blinking.
I know many others who will as well.
Your thesis was that $25K trumps $40K making the Volt unaffordable for the masses.

That is simply incorrect.

No assumptions have been made on my part.
Just the simple realities of a market economy.

First to market nearly always wins (especially in automobiles):
Best selling pony car: Ford Mustang (first on market)
Best selling minivan: Dodge Caravan (first on market)

etc. etc. etc.

The Volt has to be priced right. Toyota and Honda have a big head start in gas-electric segment. They are established.

[plane]

Originally Posted by ColoradoZQ8

$40,000 is unattainable for the majority of buyers -- the average new car transaction is half that.

I'm middle class -- I can't afford to spend $40k on a car.
I can afford = the average new car transaction. The Prius MSRP is really close to that figure.

I know GM has been making hybrids (locomotives) long before Toyota -- but the general public does not know nor would they likely believe it (let's not even mention the media bias).

BetaMAX was better than VHS.
Which one won? The cheaper one.

Just look around you while driving on the highway.
How many Land Cruisers, E-Class, BMW 5 series, Escalades or even Chevrolet Silverados do you see on the road?
I hope that you are not trying to say that there will be no sales at $40K?
Or that there will not be significant sales at $40K?
Or even that GM will have Volts sitting around waiting to be sold?


Even better.
Run the numbers.
$40K with zero down is $662.91 at 6% for 72 months.
If you save $150/month on gasoline, how unaffordable is the Volt?

[TKR]

Originally Posted by ColoradoZQ8

This is a load of crap.

The EV1 could very well be produced "as is." They would just have to limit the top speed to 35 mph (easily done electronically) -- the 12 year old design would meet all current and future safety standards for a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle classification.

Just more rubbish from Mr. "Stick Our Head in the Sand" Lutz.

He's much of the reason GM is in so much trouble -- his lack of insight.
Lots of municipalities are buying neighborhood electric vehicles in the thousands for fleets (colleges, police departments, maintenance companies).

He's long overdue to retire.

Talking about head stuck in the sand - just how many 35mph cars do you think they would sell??? 0 (or maybe 1). Let me see now;

Production line and dies - gone
Servicing - gone
Marketing - gone

It would take 1/2 billion just to get the 1st car to market let alone more.

Go and have a read about how cars are built and regulations they have to meet or pass.