GM rolls past 1million mile in fuel cell demo

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by goblue

I don't know. I think its sort of like music. Most people could learn to play, but only a small group can PLAY - they just know it and understand it. I sort of think of engineering in the same theme. Many people could learn it - and regurgitate memorized facts, like reading music - but a much smaller group just intrinsically understand it.

For people who get it - the pathway is obvious. But like anything else, things could change. The ability to produce H2 locally and net energy negative (using a sun driven enzymatic reaction with high production density) could change everything.

That's the issue, right? H2 doesn't just have to equal batteries - and I don't think most people realize fuel cells share much in common with batteries - they have to exceed it in energy efficiency by a large margin to make up for all the costs.

I agree but, independent of where the energy comes from, even if it is solar, energy is energy. Taking the same input energy and charging a battery is going to be very tough to match and, as you point out, you don't have to merely match it - you have to exceed the efficiency to make up for the infrastructure costs. Infrastructure cost that are ZERO for plug-in electrics.

It is really all about prioritizing our efforts. Work on what will pay off sooner and move less promising technologies back into the lab. No one is suggesting abandoning technology - only prioritizing it. Besides, even if we do get magical solar hydrogen ate anywhere near the volumes that we would need - today, it still needs to be compressed and stored.

As for batteries in general - most people don't realize that fuel cell cars are also dependent on batteries to deliver the high currents needed for acceleration etc. Typically half as many as a pure Plug-in serial hybrid, but still dependent on battery technology.

The bankrupt concept of "doing everything" or as some try to disguise it as a "broad spectrum approach" is kind of like buying one of every stock on the stock market and probably just as likely to result in a return on investment.

Ed

[Butz]

How much will it cost if they are going to sell one now? The technology seems to be ready except for the infrastructure, but how hard will it be to add filling stations?

[goblue]

Originally Posted by edsuski

I agree but, independent of where the energy comes from, even if it is solar, energy is energy. Taking the same input energy and charging a battery is going to be very tough to match and, as you point out, you don't have to merely match it - you have to exceed the efficiency to make up for the infrastructure costs. Infrastructure cost that are ZERO for plug-in electrics.

It is really all about prioritizing our efforts. Work on what will pay off sooner and move less promising technologies back into the lab. No one is suggesting abandoning technology - only prioritizing it. Besides, even if we do get magical solar hydrogen ate anywhere near the volumes that we would need - today, it still needs to be compressed and stored.

As for batteries in general - most people don't realize that fuel cell cars are also dependent on batteries to deliver the high currents needed for acceleration etc. Typically half as many as a pure Plug-in serial hybrid, but still dependent on battery technology.

The bankrupt concept of "doing everything" or as some try to disguise it as a "broad spectrum approach" is kind of like buying one of every stock on the stock market and probably just as likely to result in a return on investment.

Ed

Yup. Couldn't have said it better - you have to play the odds, and currently they are 99:100 for EVs and range extending EVs. H2 research should be relegated to private funded labs - the real money needs to be poured into batteries.

Further, even if we have to bolster the grid, and its a big if - that benefits so much more than cars. Just like battery research benefits so much more than automotive. That shouldn't be forgotten, this isn't just about cars.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by Butz

How much will it cost if they are going to sell one now? The technology seems to be ready except for the infrastructure, but how hard will it be to add filling stations?

Butz,

I think that the cost of such new technology vehicles is almost always more than you can sell the initial production at. The real problem is that the needed infrastructure is not in place and is estimated to take at least 10-15 years and Billions of dollars to realize.

As goblue pointed out - the electrical infrastructure to recharge plug-in electric vehicles exists TODAY and is needed and used by thousands of other products. The DOT estimates that we could recharge 85% of the existing passenger vehicle and light trucks with the existing electrical infrastructure WITHOUT adding a single wire or power plant so long as we recharge off peak (other than 4:00 pm to 10:00 pm). It will take a long time to reach 85% but even when we do - we would be improving an infrastructure that we are completely dependent on today rather than a completely new H infrastructure.

Ed

[LeSabre]

!!!!!