GM Delivers Fuel Cell Equinox to EPA for Testing

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

I wonder how close GM is to selling these all-electric fuel cell powered Equinoxes?

Probably not for awhile. Just because places that sell hydrogen are so few.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by edsuski

Actually, in a serial hybrid such as the Volt, if you run out of battery - the internal combustion engine comes on and drives a generator to power the electric motor. You may not even know it happened. You will never be stranded - unless you run out of liquid fuel - but that is how every car works today. Does that make sense?

Yes. The Volt is NOT an EV that can only go 40 miles. It is an EXTENDED RANGE EV, that can go well over 300 miles (600?) in addition to a 40 mile range provided by a plug in charge. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, just saying why a short range, commuter-type electric ONLY vehicle is, and has been, a poor idea. The Volt (E-Flex system) fixes the electric vehicle's biggest shortcomings.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by edsuski

40 miles is just for comparison (and happens to be what 78% of Americans drive (or less) per day). Energy cost per mile would be fine - or per 300 miles if that was easier. Why are you hung up on 300 miles? If you constrain the requirements to a number like 300 (I assume you use it because that is a typical range of a gas tank) - then it makes some things look more attractive, but the reality is that 78% of Americans drive 40 miles per day or less. I am thinking that the goal should be to meet the largest percentage of the population’s requirements with the minimum investment - not solve the corner cases with "cost is no object". Does that make sense?

I also think you realize that serial plug in electric vehicle do have a range of 300 miles - just not on battery alone.

Comparison? A fuel cell you will use it like a normal gas powered vehicle. In other words if you charge up for only 40 miles you are pretty screwed. Fuel Cell has enough power to allow you to plug into the power grid and return enough power to the entire neighbourhood. The power generation of both Canada and US have been saying they have no idea how to allow people to plug their vehicles back into the grid and pay the customers back. China on the other hand is taking a different approach and also will allow them to generate even more power without the need of additional powerplants.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by fp115

Comparison? A fuel cell you will use it like a normal gas powered vehicle. In other words if you charge up for only 40 miles you are pretty screwed. Fuel Cell has enough power to allow you to plug into the power grid and return enough power to the entire neighbourhood. The power generation of both Canada and US have been saying they have no idea how to allow people to plug their vehicles back into the grid and pay the customers back. China on the other hand is taking a different approach and also will allow them to generate even more power without the need of additional powerplants.

If you are suggesting that you can power you neighborhood using an automotive fuel cell - I think you are mistaken. Automotive fuel cells need to include batteries to supply high enough currents to accelerate a vehicle. They are not designed to deliver very high currents. At least not the latest batch that I am aware of.

The 40 mile questions are only for comparison. We know how much electricity is needed to charge the Volt to travel 40 miles and we also know that 78% of the country travels 40 or less miles to commute to and from work. That is where the 40 miles came from. We are trying to understand how much electricity (power) is needed, per mile traveled, to generate hydrogen. I think you will see it is considerably more than simply charging a battery in the first place. Of course - you can store more hydrogen and get more range from it than a Volt battery - but if the battery satisfies 78% of the countries needs today (likely to increase in the near future) then maybe we should start with what we have rather than waste 10 - 20 years building a completely unnecessary infrastructure to use hydrogen. Just a thought.....

[fp115]

Originally Posted by edsuski

If you are suggesting that you can power you neighborhood using an automotive fuel cell - I think you are mistaken. Automotive fuel cells need to include batteries to supply high enough currents to accelerate a vehicle. They are not designed to deliver very high currents. At least not the latest batch that I am aware of.

The 40 mile questions are only for comparison. We know how much electricity is needed to charge the Volt to travel 40 miles and we also know that 78% of the country travels 40 or less miles to commute to and from work. That is where the 40 miles came from. We are trying to understand how much electricity (power) is needed, per mile traveled, to generate hydrogen. I think you will see it is considerably more than simply charging a battery in the first place. Of course - you can store more hydrogen and get more range from it than a Volt battery - but if the battery satisfies 78% of the countries needs today (likely to increase in the near future) then maybe we should start with what we have rather than waste 10 - 20 years building a completely unnecessary infrastructure to use hydrogen. Just a thought.....

Mistaken? You should read up on the GM fuel cell again. The fuel cell generates enough power that it can power up a small neighbourhood. I don't remember the exact number in regards to power, but it is surely surprising. One of the methods allowing for this to happen is in the storage of hydrogen. The surplus in energy simply goes to waste at the moment, but hoping that soon the energy can be transfered to some other application, at least to power up your own home. How does that sound? Not having to pay for energy at your home ever again.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by fp115

Mistaken? You should read up on the GM fuel cell again. The fuel cell generates enough power that it can power up a small neighbourhood. I don't remember the exact number in regards to power, but it is surely surprising. One of the methods allowing for this to happen is in the storage of hydrogen. The surplus in energy simply goes to waste at the moment, but hoping that soon the energy can be transfered to some other application, at least to power up your own home. How does that sound? Not having to pay for energy at your home ever again.

Yes, but you'll pay for your hydrogen. Certain plans call for making the hydrogen at home from either your electric power, or from your natural gas line.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by edsuski

If you are suggesting that you can power you neighborhood using an automotive fuel cell - I think you are mistaken. Automotive fuel cells need to include batteries to supply high enough currents to accelerate a vehicle. They are not designed to deliver very high currents. At least not the latest batch that I am aware of.

The 40 mile questions are only for comparison. We know how much electricity is needed to charge the Volt to travel 40 miles and we also know that 78% of the country travels 40 or less miles to commute to and from work. That is where the 40 miles came from. We are trying to understand how much electricity (power) is needed, per mile traveled, to generate hydrogen. I think you will see it is considerably more than simply charging a battery in the first place. Of course - you can store more hydrogen and get more range from it than a Volt battery - but if the battery satisfies 78% of the countries needs today (likely to increase in the near future) then maybe we should start with what we have rather than waste 10 - 20 years building a completely unnecessary infrastructure to use hydrogen. Just a thought.....

Fuel cells are in use RIGHT NOW, in a stationary mode, as generators for houses, neighborhoods, even industrial complexes (mainly as emergency back-up generators). Some hospitals have them. I seem to recall a story from a couple years ago (fuel cells are not new, they've been around for decades) that GM was using them to power one of their industrial facilities.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by CaptainDan

Fuel cells are in use RIGHT NOW, in a stationary mode, as generators for houses, neighborhoods, even industrial complexes (mainly as emergency back-up generators). Some hospitals have them. I seem to recall a story from a couple years ago (fuel cells are not new, they've been around for decades) that GM was using them to power one of their industrial facilities.

Guys,

No question a fuel cell "can" be used to power things - even big things (when they are designed for big loads) but when one says power "neighborhoods" and "stores excess energy as hydrogen" I want to ask how big is the neighborhood you are talking about and what exactly is the source of "extra energy" (from an earlier post). My neighborhood consists of 900 homes with typical power demands of 2000 KWh – 3000 KWh per month during some months (worst case maybe 300 KWh per home for a given worst case hour - just guessing). That is obviously a wildly worst case - but I don't know what you really mean by neighborhood and extra energy (seriously). Lastly - we are talking about a relatively small fuel cell (designed for cars not dozens of homes or industrial applications). And really lastly - are we talking about a few light bulbs or a full home with the air-conditioning, electric oven, dryer, PC's, lights etc. on?

If we are talking about an emergency back-up and are willing to pay about 2X for the energy (vs. grid power) then it certainly can be done.

[chakis24]

doesnt honda sell home hydrogen generators for its hydrogen car that is currently leaseable in cali? yeaaaaa, im sure its simpler than people are making it seem.

we cant just have electric cars, or else electricity will become the new oil, like johnstarnes said. the way things are going with technology, something unthinkable now can be doable in a year. its better to be in the game, or at the forefront when that breakthrough happens than sitting back and just getting in- cause by then its too late.

these are production, they can be sold now, but there just needs to be a market- just like with everything else.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by edsuski

Guys,

No question a fuel cell "can" be used to power things - even big things (when they are designed for big loads) but when one says power "neighborhoods" and "stores excess energy as hydrogen" I want to ask how big is the neighborhood you are talking about and what exactly is the source of "extra energy" (from an earlier post). My neighborhood consists of 900 homes with typical power demands of 2000 KWh – 3000 KWh per month during some months (worst case maybe 300 KWh per home for a given worst case hour - just guessing). That is obviously a wildly worst case - but I don't know what you really mean by neighborhood and extra energy (seriously). Lastly - we are talking about a relatively small fuel cell (designed for cars not dozens of homes or industrial applications). And really lastly - are we talking about a few light bulbs or a full home with the air-conditioning, electric oven, dryer, PC's, lights etc. on?

If we are talking about an emergency back-up and are willing to pay about 2X for the energy (vs. grid power) then it certainly can be done.

We are talking about a small neighbourhood not one as large as 900 homes. I would say a small neighbourhood would be one of about 50-100 homes.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by fp115

...The power generation of both Canada and US have been saying they have no idea how to allow people to plug their vehicles back into the grid and pay the customers back.....

They have no idea? Why, are they morons?

In order to entice people to install alternative energy (windmills, solar, whatever) on their houses, the US federal government enacted into law that ALL electric utilities would have to pay for any electricity you send back up the line (easily read through your meter) at the same prevailing rate that they charge you. If you produce less than you use, the amount would be deducted from your bill. If you produce MORE than you use, they would have to pay you. That's easy enough.

And this law has been on the books for thirty years. Hey, look at that! Jimmy Carter DID do something useful while he was president! Who would have thunk it?

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by edsuski

Guys,

No question a fuel cell "can" be used to power things - even big things (when they are designed for big loads) but when one says power "neighborhoods" and "stores excess energy as hydrogen" I want to ask how big is the neighborhood you are talking about and what exactly is the source of "extra energy" (from an earlier post). My neighborhood consists of 900 homes with typical power demands of 2000 KWh – 3000 KWh per month during some months (worst case maybe 300 KWh per home for a given worst case hour - just guessing). That is obviously a wildly worst case - but I don't know what you really mean by neighborhood and extra energy (seriously). Lastly - we are talking about a relatively small fuel cell (designed for cars not dozens of homes or industrial applications). And really lastly - are we talking about a few light bulbs or a full home with the air-conditioning, electric oven, dryer, PC's, lights etc. on?

If we are talking about an emergency back-up and are willing to pay about 2X for the energy (vs. grid power) then it certainly can be done.

A fuel cell "designed for big loads"? The energy needed to move more than a ton of steel around is a lot more than it takes to run a household (even when running A/C, fridge, and other appliances).

A fuel cell of the size that would be needed for a Chevy Volt (the gas engine Volt produces 111kW) would produce enough electricity to power about 10 to 20 average homes full time, down to maybe 5 houses at max peak usage of around 20 kW (which would pop every circuit breaker in the house!). My neighborhood has 5 houses.

It is true that such a method of powering your "neighborhood" would be a great deal more expensive than the electricity delivered by your local utility. But it would be great to have it as a backup during a blackout, and could in fact help to PREVENT a blackout.

Especially when you consider that some of your neighbors could also have vehicles charging in their garages too. (more potential generators!)

[61BelAir]

Originally Posted by nsap

Oh? What will the EPA do with it? They don't even know how to "test" a Volt.

I have a Volt-Meter they can borrow!