GM announces location of Coskata cellulosic ethanol plant

[motorman]

Originally Posted by Rick_VT

$1/gallon is the production cost right?? Any idea on what the cost at the service station will be though?

what will the govt taxes be that is the question. don't think you are going to save money if you use ethanol no matter how cheap is is to make. look to cigs for the answer. they got more people to quit smoking so they had to raise the taxes to get the govt the money it needs.

[TORRED1]

Originally Posted by motorman

what will the govt taxes be that is the question. don't think you are going to save money if you use ethanol no matter how cheap is is to make. look to cigs for the answer. they got more people to quit smoking so they had to raise the taxes to get the govt the money it needs.

Your only the second person I know to figure that one out, raise the taxes in the guise of suing the tobacco companys for reasons of your health, boy did people buy that one.

[TORRED1]

I would like to see the cheap ethanol, but I fear thet day will not really come, It will allways be right behind gas in price, just a bit cheaper but not buy much. The E85 on the market now is within .40 cent of regular and yet it does not cost a penny more to produce than it did 6 months ago. but hey thats the market, I understand it, I just hope they dont shoot them selves in the foot. Dont get me wrong im still in favor of ethanol because is home grown and for me that makes it worth it.

[motorman]

Originally Posted by TORRED1

Your only the second person I know to figure that one out, raise the taxes in the guise of suing the tobacco companys for reasons of your health, boy did people buy that one.

no mater what happen it is not going to get cheaper to drive your car. we get cars that get 60 MPG the gas tax will go up so the govt. does not loose out on any taxes. the way to cut you fuel costs is to drive smart by planning your trips. when we go out to eat we now eat local rather than drive 30 miles just to get to a certain restaurant.

[HoosierRon]

Originally Posted by TORRED1

I would like to see the cheap ethanol, but I fear thet day will not really come, It will allways be right behind gas in price, just a bit cheaper but not buy much. The E85 on the market now is within .40 cent of regular and yet it does not cost a penny more to produce than it did 6 months ago. but hey thats the market, I understand it, I just hope they dont shoot them selves in the foot. Dont get me wrong im still in favor of ethanol because is home grown and for me that makes it worth it.

Read this book.

As the author explains, the only way for Big Oil to feel price pressure from ethanol is if all cars are flex fuel. Then consumers will have a real choice at the pump.

Zubrin's plan is straightforward and practical. He argues that if Congress passed a law requiring that all new cars sold in the USA be flex-fueled — that is, able to run on any combination of gasoline or alcohol fuels — this one action would destroy the monopoly that the oil cartel has maintained on the globe's transportation fuel supply, opening it up to competition from alcohol fuels produced by farmers worldwide. According to Zubrin's estimates, within three years of enactment, such a regulation would put 50 million cars on the road in the USA capable of running on high-alcohol fuels, and at least an equal number overseas.

[treekiller]

Originally Posted by thebuickguy

well if cellulosic ethanol is accepted national god willing add 20 cents for federal tax then 30 cent state then a 10 to 20 cent station mark up still looking below $2.00

and since we can only Buy E85. figure 15% of base Hydrocarbon stock $3.50. gal.
and let us not forget tax numbers (I just grabbed these from a quick google)
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/st...tate_2002.html

My home state of Florida. (WORST CASE)

$0.53 per gallon for the base gasonline stock
$0.85 for the $1.00 per gallon ethanol
Lets pretend the blender lives off the subsidy.
$0.18.4 National Tax
$0.13.6 State Tax
$.16 Misc. State Tax
$0.20 Transportation and delivery
$0.20 dealer Markup

$2.26 per gallon. I loose exactly 15% mileage on E85
so My "Gasoline Gallon Equivalent cost" is $2.599/Gal

that puts me square at $0.09 per mile much better then the $0.12-$0.13/CPM I currently get on either E85 or 93 octane.

[treekiller]

Originally Posted by TORRED1

Your only the second person I know to figure that one out, raise the taxes in the guise of suing the tobacco companys for reasons of your health, boy did people buy that one.

Good point, however keep in mind when we lost smokers we also lost production of the tobacco, the income taxes from the farms, and workers. in addition to the excise and sin taxes.

NOW! with ethanol. we are taking $$$ directly out of the trade deficit, and now we are giving that money to tax paying citizens. so now the states benefit from increased employment, the government benefits from increased income taxes. we benefit from lower end prices, (if only slightly) the energy used to create the ethanol (which everyone complains about) comes from domestic sources. which equals more income and more tax money for the Gubment..


in 2003 we were using 4.51 liter per person per day. in fuel.
http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/21064525

or 1.19 gallons per day. or $4.76 a day (assuming $4/gal) so for each driver that converts to ethanol it's $1737 a year. (which this is a skewed number since not everyone drives, I'm going to say 1/3 of the people drive) so for every 4 that choose ethanol that's another job in America. and another person off welfare/unemployment, another person paying taxes.

I need 3 more. hopefully then I can find a job.

[motorman]

[quote=treekiller;1385300]Good point, however keep in mind when we lost smokers we also lost production of the tobacco, the income taxes from the farms, and workers. in addition to the excise and sin taxes.

when we cut back on the number of smokers we loose jobs for undertakers,flower shops and hearst drivers so that hurts on the economy. there are aways unintended consequences for any so called "good deed"

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by motorman

what will the govt taxes be that is the question. don't think you are going to save money if you use ethanol no matter how cheap is is to make. look to cigs for the answer. they got more people to quit smoking so they had to raise the taxes to get the govt the money it needs.

Yeah, but tobacco is something they are trying to get rid of. They actually WANT ethanol.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by TORRED1

I would like to see the cheap ethanol, but I fear thet day will not really come, It will allways be right behind gas in price, just a bit cheaper but not buy much. The E85 on the market now is within .40 cent of regular and yet it does not cost a penny more to produce than it did 6 months ago. but hey thats the market, I understand it, I just hope they dont shoot them selves in the foot. Dont get me wrong im still in favor of ethanol because is home grown and for me that makes it worth it.

Yes it does. It is better to give your fuel dollars to a fellow citizen and/ or company, than it is to send those same fuel dollars to King Abdullah. In sooooooo many ways!

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by treekiller

Good point, however keep in mind when we lost smokers we also lost production of the tobacco, the income taxes from the farms, and workers. in addition to the excise and sin taxes.........

But we don't lose that farm production. They're farmers. If one crop isn't working, plant something else. Maybe Virginia and North Carolina will start to be known for producing something helpful, instead of something harmful.

And don't you worry your head about the government "losing out" on taxes. They WILL find something to tax!

[DropTopOlds]

[quote=motorman;1386020]

Originally Posted by treekiller

when we cut back on the number of smokers we loose jobs for undertakers,flower shops and hearst drivers so that hurts on the economy. there are aways unintended consequences for any so called "good deed"

Nah - nonsmokers die just like smokers do. That particular industry is rather stable... but I see your point.

[monkeylizard]

So what is the source of energy gor these plasma torches? What percentage of energy equivalent ethanol would be needed to fuel these torches? Is there a net energy source output greater than input? My guess is coal is the input fuel. If so, are we really just converting coal energy combined with cellulose from feedstock for ethanol? I'm just curious about the energy breakdown here.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

This is not a VHS vs. BETA battle. Whether you make ethanol from corn or sugar or garbage or switchgrass, the end product is the same: C2H5OH.

What I was referring to was competing technologies and approaches....BETA and VHS were differing in substance yet both resulted in storable replayable video imagery, just as both competing methods I addressed result in ethanol as fuel for cars....one approach consumes vast amounts of water and soil input to produce the feed stock, one uses pre-existing plant waste as feed stock. I greatly prefer the latter as water and the sources of fertilizers are dwindling whereas plant waste is renewable and now generally discarded. As I said before, I think it will be interesting to in time see which predominates.

[motorman]

Originally Posted by CaptainDan

Yeah, but tobacco is something they are trying to get rid of. They actually WANT ethanol.

they don't want to get rid of it as there is too much taxes to be made. same with aids,they don't want to get rid of it as there is too much money to be made in looking for the "cure"