The future of fuel will arrive next year

[ogg vorbis]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

Next up: every manufacturer will make every vehicle Flex Fuel, and every gas station will have an E85 pump.

i imagine they need lots of shallow pools. perhaps they could stack them to conserve acreage?

ethanol really likes 16:1 compression. engines can be downsized 18-24%, with sidi another 7%. lean burn is worth 20-40% added economy. we could maintain hp levels, and see >30% better economy with 1.5L E85 4 cyl vs a typical 2L gasoline engine. extending our fuel supply, while ramping up bio-ethanol will bring self sufficiency into reality. in the interim, i'd like to see higher compression motors, sidi and 91 minimum octane gasoline.

what will brazil would do with all that extra sugar once it converts to agleanol? bake a big cake? i'm just concerned about the 'nutrients' the algae needs...it has to come from somewhere. is it hydroponic nutes from mineral/ammonia sources, or organic? the net zero carbon balance is excellent. it sounds like the process is about as efficient (or more) as gasoline production. what will fuel prices do once bio-ethanol becomes significant?

high performance engines can start with current 10-11:1 engines and slap on a turbo/supercharger a la saab bio-power. the only difference is higher boost with E85.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

I wasn't, I was referring to the poster I quoted who was referring to economies being shut down due to a switch in fuel sources and that if we did convert to E85, it would take 16 years of fleet life to do so. I wasn't saying we should switch to solely E85.

I see your point now - besides, any oil we stop using will easily be consumed by China and India as their development continues. I don't think there is any real threat to the economies of oil producing countries (other than a normalization of prices to around $60 per barrel). The real advantage will be our independence from foreign oil and all that goes with that.

[carscomblogger]

dumb question but where are they getting the saltwater they need in the middle of a desert? And for the record "I'll believe it when I see it."

[jckjds]

Originally Posted by ogg vorbis

i imagine they need lots of shallow pools. perhaps they could stack them to conserve acreage?

ethanol really likes 16:1 compression. engines can be downsized 18-24%, with sidi another 7%. lean burn is worth 20-40% added economy. we could maintain hp levels, and see >30% better economy with 1.5L E85 4 cyl vs a typical 2L gasoline engine. extending our fuel supply, while ramping up bio-ethanol will bring self sufficiency into reality. in the interim, i'd like to see higher compression motors, sidi and 91 minimum octane gasoline.

what will brazil would do with all that extra sugar once it converts to agleanol? bake a big cake? i'm just concerned about the 'nutrients' the algae needs...it has to come from somewhere. is it hydroponic nutes from mineral/ammonia sources, or organic? the net zero carbon balance is excellent. it sounds like the process is about as efficient (or more) as gasoline production. what will fuel prices do once bio-ethanol becomes significant?

high performance engines can start with current 10-11:1 engines and slap on a turbo/supercharger a la saab bio-power. the only difference is higher boost with E85.

That's a great point. Saab biopower has proven that ethanol engines can be at least as powerful and fuel efficient as gasoline if designed to optimize performance with ethanol.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

Dakotas to Midwest to East Coast Ethanol Pipeline In The Works

Thanks Ron for the link. The article was dated February of 2008. Any news or updates on whether or not they'll build it?

Good information - thank you.

Originally Posted by BlueMontreal

Pipelines we already have cannot transport ethanol for many reasons, among them water and corrosion. But we can easily adapt those pipelines to transport ethanol blend like E10 or E22 without excessive cost.

We can also built special ethanol pipelines, but this is expensive and will take some time.

Thanks for the explanation. Just for my own edification, what materials are used in oil pipelines that can be corroded if Ethanol is pushed thru? What wold they make ethanol-carrying pipes out of - some kind of ceramic perhaps?

Thanks again!

[BlueMontreal]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

Thanks Ron for the link. The article was dated February of 2008. Any news or updates on whether or not they'll build it?

Good information - thank you.

Thanks for the explanation. Just for my own edification, what materials are used in oil pipelines that can be corroded if Ethanol is pushed thru? What wold they make ethanol-carrying pipes out of - some kind of ceramic perhaps?

Thanks again!

I don't know for sure. There is no need for ceramic.

If I had to design such a pipeline, I would avoid rubber in seals, aluminum and magnesium. Some iron blend would be perfect while other might be very affected. I would also put put stations along the pipeline to remove water.

I'm more into organic chemistry. Sorry if I can't go further.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by fp115

How much of this is actually used by cars?

Most of it although gasoline powered lawn mowers consume 800 Million gallons per year (about 2 days worth).

Other "off highway" equipment like portable generators, ATV's, Dirt Bikes and gas power tools like chain saws would comsume a like amount (maybe more)

So about 1.6 Billion gallons a year would be consumed by "other" gas powered equipment/vehicles.

[m4bama]

In all due respect Ethanol is not good for older engines that are on the road now it will almost ruin them.

For 2 cycle motors on lawn care equipment alot of upkeep to keep them running.
Ethanol is alot like wind energy a false hope Hydrogen is the way.

[prowlerjc]

If ever there was a false hope, hydrogen is it. Ethanol is much more readily available, and the supply infrastructure is there. The production of eth from algae looks quite promising.

[Nkippert]

That energy ratio will be a gain to the existence of ethanol, and now maybee food prices will go down due to using less corn than what we do now. Also i like how it uses seawater to help produce it, last time i checked we had plenty of that.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by m4bama

In all due respect Ethanol is not good for older engines that are on the road now it will almost ruin them.

For 2 cycle motors on lawn care equipment alot of upkeep to keep them running.
Ethanol is alot like wind energy a false hope Hydrogen is the way.

While I appreciate the "problems" that ethanol causes in older engines, those were actually caused by the oil based fuels leaving behind contaminants which ethanol would loosen, thus clogging downstream components. But you need not worry, just like the switch to unleaded gasoline, when there was a long period when both leaded and unleaded were available, since the older engines weren't compatible. After enough years have gone by to retire the vast majority of older engines, the older type of fuel would also disappear. Just like leaded gasoline.

I am actually quite surprised that 2 strokes are still around, I've been hearing for years how they would be legislated out of exisence, eventually, due to environmental concerns.

I really don't understand labeling ethanol as a "false hope". It's not like it is some theory of what might work. It does work, it is working, and it's use is greatly increasing (and getting more and more efficient in it's production). It has already proven itself over the last several years.

To some extent, hydrogen as a viable fuel IS just a theory. It might just be the fuel of the future, but at this time the BEST we can say is, "not yet."

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by Nkippert

That energy ratio will be a gain to the existence of ethanol, and now maybee food prices will go down due to using less corn than what we do now. Also i like how it uses seawater to help produce it, last time i checked we had plenty of that.

If fuel (gasoline or ethanol or whatever) prices come down, food prices will come down.

Oh no! We're going to run out of seawater!

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by m4bama

In all due respect Ethanol is not good for older engines that are on the road now it will almost ruin them.

For 2 cycle motors on lawn care equipment alot of upkeep to keep them running.
Ethanol is alot like wind energy a false hope Hydrogen is the way.

E10 won't ruin them, that's a myth. E85 will ruin the fuel system of any car not designed to use it, that's true.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by BlueMontreal

I don't know for sure. There is no need for ceramic.

If I had to design such a pipeline, I would avoid rubber in seals, aluminum and magnesium. Some iron blend would be perfect while other might be very affected. I would also put put stations along the pipeline to remove water.

I'm more into organic chemistry. Sorry if I can't go further.

No worries, thanks for the information BlueMontreal. Much appreciated.

So ethanol is corrossive to those materials you mentioned, and those only?

[44 mpg by 2010]

A few thoughts about algae ethonol.

First, realize that there are strains of algae that generate ALMOST TWICE the volume of bio diesel of the "best" algae to ethanol process that I know of can from a given resource.

Second, the per gallon energy content of bio diesel is also about twice that of ethanol.

So the even the simplest assessment shows that one should achieve about about 3 to 4 times the work (distance travelled and load) from algae bio diesel compared to a comparable sized algae ethanol process.

the "good thing is that in both cases no food production is disrrupted.

However, I prefer algae bio diesel compared to algae ethanol because it has the potential to provide at LEAST 3 times the work for a given resource commitment.

That suggests that a given algae bio desel process could provide 3 times more transportation fuel (3 times the vehicles) that a comparably sized ethanol process could!