Ethanol vs. food debate growing

[mjd1001]

Before milk prices started spiraling, before gas prices passed $3.50 and before food riots broke out in several countries, ethanol was the darling of energy alternatives. It gave jobs to rural communities and offered an alternative to foreign oil.

Now, ethanol is a source of bitter controversy, as rising consumer prices have led to new questions about whether corn can serve as both food and fuel without dramatically upsetting the foundations of America's economy.

President Bush sympathized with the families who exhaust their paychecks on groceries and gasoline, but he remains committed to the possibilities for ethanol.

A recent analysis estimated that government subsidies for ethanol reached as high as $8.4 billion last year, a sum showing that all stages of ethanol production and consumption depended on some form of public support rather than the free market

Full article here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,0,10730.story

[K-1]

Newsflash - corn isn't the only, nor is it the best, way to make ethanol.

Fear-mongering at its finest.

[johnstarnes]

Thanks for that....Washington Post has a good one about how diverting feed corn from livestock to ethanol production a primary cause of the spike in food prices, and how acreage formerly dedicated to growing corn and other crops as livestock food and human food now being used to grow crops for biofuels adds to the effect. So I continue to greatly prefer cellulosic ethanol from plant waste, or oil from algae, vs. from cultivated crops that need vast amounts of water and fertilizers that are creating huge "dead zones" in the Gulf once they enter via the Mississippi and other rivers. Food-into-fuel in a hungry world strapped for resources just does not make sense to me, just as oil palm and sugar cane plantations for fuel are wreaking horrific damage to what little remains of the planet's rain forests.

[mjd1001]

Originally Posted by K-1

Newsflash - corn isn't the only, nor is it the best, way to make ethanol.

Fear-mongering at its finest.

Not fear mongering at all...unless you choose to look at it this way...and the fact that you said corn isn't the only or the best way to make ethanol illustrates just that.
The reason I posted the article is the point it is making....Why are we devoting SO much time, energy, money, etc....especially the huge governmental subsidies....on corn ethanol. The 'over investment' is not only causing potential problems in food prices/supplies....but as you stated yourself, it's good money thrown at what is not the 'best solution'.

The article is not going after ethanol..but rather the united states HUGE investment in corn based ethanol. I don't see how you think that is fear mongering...when if you read between the lines...it is actually supporting your very point.

[K-1]

Originally Posted by mjd1001

Not fear mongering at all...unless you choose to look at it this way...and the fact that you said corn isn't the only or the best way to make ethanol illustrates just that.
The reason I posted the article is the point it is making....Why are we devoting SO much time, energy, money, etc....especially the huge governmental subsidies....on corn ethanol. The 'over investment' is not only causing potential problems in food prices/supplies....but as you stated yourself, it's good money thrown at what is not the 'best solution'.

The article is not going after ethanol..but rather the united states HUGE investment in corn based ethanol. I don't see how you think that is fear mongering...when if you read between the lines...it is actually supporting your very point.

This "huge" investment is nothing new. It's been going on for years. What is new is $120 barrels of oil. That is your source of increased food prices.

[K-1]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

Thanks for that....Washington Post has a good one about how diverting feed corn from livestock to ethanol production a primary cause of the spike in food prices, and how acreage formerly dedicated to growing corn and other crops as livestock food and human food now being used to grow crops for biofuels adds to the effect. So I continue to greatly prefer cellulosic ethanol from plant waste, or oil from algae, vs. from cultivated crops that need vast amounts of water and fertilizers that are creating huge "dead zones" in the Gulf once they enter via the Mississippi and other rivers. Food-into-fuel in a hungry world strapped for resources just does not make sense to me, just as oil palm and sugar cane plantations for fuel are wreaking horrific damage to what little remains of the planet's rain forests.

Corn for ethanol isn't just thrown away after it's used. What remains after the starches are removed is turned into cattle feed. So how, again, is corn being diverted from livestock?

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by K-1

Corn for ethanol isn't just thrown away after it's used. What remains after the starches are removed is turned into cattle feed. So how, again, is corn being diverted from livestock?

A corn kernel is almost completely starch, with some cellulose,oil, and a trace of corn gluten protein that is used as cattle feed and a pre-emergent natural herbicide. I would read the Washington Post article for the details as I have not retained them all, just the basic points covered on how food into fuel is diverting crops and acreage, especially the latter. I thought it had a pretty balanced overview. I don't claim to understand it all but I do enjoy trying to stay informed about it since my personal life is based intimately on agriculture.

[K-1]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

A corn kernel is almost completely starch, with some cellulose,oil, and a trace of corn gluten protein that is used as cattle feed and a pre-emergent natural herbicide.

So, given that, I'll ask again, how is corn being diverted from livestock? If anything, there's more ethanol left-overs for livestock to consume.

[WishIhadatruck]

Everything seems to be costing more. Is rice getting more expensive because of Ethanol? Or is everything getting more expensive because of fuel costs and other factors? Regardless I think producing Ethanol from other sources rather than corn is a good idea. I'm glad to see those other technologies starting to come online.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by K-1

So, given that, I'll ask again, how is corn being diverted from livestock? If anything, there's more ethanol left-overs for livestock to consume.

As I said, the article mentions how a great deal of acreage formerly devoted to feed production now produces various crops for fuels, not just corn and the means by which it is processed.

[mjd1001]

Originally Posted by K-1

So, given that, I'll ask again, how is corn being diverted from livestock? If anything, there's more ethanol left-overs for livestock to consume.

It isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Yes, some is converted for livestock...but what is converted for livestock is much less than would be there for livestock if it wasn't used for Ethanol. Also, the ethanol producing/refining facilities are not right next to where the livestock are...there are transport costs, logistical issues..etc that are greater than if it were not used for ethanol. Also, the rise in fuel prices is not only because of livestock feed...it is also for corn that can be used for human consumption..or if not for human consumption directly...to be 'refined' for other food products for human consumption. Finally, I don't think we are saying you don't have a valid point...just that you can't ignore that Ethanol is a valuable part of our energy issues/solutions going forward...but all we are doing is pointing out some issues that show it is not the best solution....or a 'cure all' solution....your responses to our points almost make me think you are an ethanol lobbyist. I accept your points that Ethanol is a wonderful thing...it just seems that you don't want to accept our points (and the point of the article, as evidence by your response saying it is 'fear mongering at it's finest) that corn based ethanol can be very problematic for many reaons at the level we are producing it.

[tgagneguam]

Originally Posted by mjd1001

...The reason I posted the article is the point it is making....Why are we devoting SO much time, energy, money, etc....especially the huge governmental subsidies....on corn ethanol. The 'over investment' is not only causing potential problems in food prices/supplies....but as you stated yourself, it's good money thrown at what is not the 'best solution'...

This is generally the point that I took from your selected article, mjd1001, and the above post nicely reinforces that.

Some people here are crying for the government to intervene in energy, which on some level it should. But it's interesting that, once again, we have a Federal government that accentuates a problem, creates other problems, and finds legislators pandering to special interests rather than developing a viable, long-term energy policy that encourages industry to research and market the most viable commercial replacement of oil-if that's even a possibility.

"Eggs went up 25%, Joe American? Well, I've got a solution for you. You're going to pay more taxes to cover the lost tax revenue from giving industrial behemoth ADM a fat tax break so they can eventually lower your energy costs. While we're at it, good ole Rex Tillerman in Irving, TX is gonna be getting the same help, too, as ExxonMobil only made $10.9 billion last quarter - the second biggest U.S. quarterly corporate profit ever. Now, get that checkbook out, and start a-writing. Decreased fuel costs are just moments away. Think of the money you're gonna save."

[NfamousZ24]

Isn't the tax subsidies going to the Oil companies to mix the Ethanol with Gas, And not going to the people actually making Ethanol? That is what they were talking about on Autoline Detroit earlier in the year.

Cost of Fuel way up
Cost of Fertilizer way up
=
Food prices are up


I also seen somewhere that America make 40% of the worlds corn, But only 4% of corn we produce goes towards Ethanol.

Our Goverment still pays farmers not to grow stuff!!! That needs to stop.

[carpeddler]

gas 3.68 a gallon
hamburger 4.56 a pound
water 1.15 a 16oz
canned

[I-Love-Pontiac]

It's interesting that this debate is even happening. I was watching CNBC and they were basically saying increasing prices is a result of the price of oil. And this is what always happens when oil prices spike.

So not only are oil companies taking the focus off of them when they are the real culprits, but at the same time they are also successfully getting people to hate our best chance at getting off of oil. I'm not a big anti corporate America type person.... but damn. These people suck.