Bills introduced in Congress: $7500 PHEV credit, E85 pumps mandated, and more

[motorman]

Originally Posted by CaptainDan

I don't think there is any reason for you to worry about our government figuring out where to get tax dollars from. They have shown a certain "gift" in that area of expertise.

that is true BUT the govt will not allow you to beat the system till they have a method in place to collect the taxes. after this happens you will see electric cars in mass not till then.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by motorman

that is true BUT the govt will not allow you to beat the system till they have a method in place to collect the taxes. after this happens you will see electric cars not till then.

But that's easy (for the government). If they "need" some new tax revenue, they will have it all ready, and their hands in your pocket, before you can say, "Revenue enhancement."

[uvaeeman]

Originally Posted by logansowner

This is great, but the thing people don't get is that if a Volt costs $40,000 with this credit it does NOT costs $32,500. If you're in a 35% tax area you're looking at saving, well, 35% of that $7500.

Any tax credit I've heard of has always lowered you're taxable income, but isn't actually worth that much is actual money.

What you're describing is a deduction. A tax credit does actually come straight off your tax bill, dollar for dollar.
http://www.finweb.com/taxes/deductions-vs-credits.html

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Caleb02

IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE GOVERNEMENT TO BAIL OUT INDUSTRIES WHO ARE NOT RELATIVE TO THE ECONOMY AS THEY ONCE WERE. MAYBE GM FORD THE ONLY REALLY AMERICAN CAR COMPANIES SINCE CHRYSLER IS STILL 19% OWNED BY DIAMLER AND THAT IS A PUBLIC COMPANY SO THEN CHRYSLER IS ALSO PUBLIC. WHAT US AUTO BUSINESS NEEDS TO DO IS TO BUILD AUTOS THAT PEOPLE WANT AND TO LOBBY CONGRESS TO REPEAL ALL AUTO REGULATIONS AS THE MARKET SHOULD DECIDE WHAT FEATURES AN AUTO COMES WITH. IF PEOPLE DONT WANT AIRBAGS OR ABS OR DRIVE BY WIRE THEN THE MARKET SHOULD DECIDE THAT.

Oh goody.

A perfect opportunity to showcase GM's facts and fiction website content.

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

FICTION : GM is looking for a government bailout


Fact

We are not seeking a bailout, or a handout. We are talking about loans, which must be repaid in full, with interest.

We are asking Congress to fund a loan program already authorized as part of major energy legislation last year. These loans are specifically designed to accelerate investment in energy-saving technologies, and help carmakers and suppliers more quickly introduce cleaner, more fuel-efficient vehicles.

GM is already investing billions in technologies that help drivers use less fuel, help America reduce its dependence on petroleum, and help GM comply with aggressive new government fuel-economy mandates.

This federal direct-loan program is a powerful and appropriate incentive to speed this transformation, which is vital to our industry, and to the country as a whole.

September 10, 2008

FICTION : GM no longer matters to the U.S. or its economy


Fact

The U.S.-based auto industry remains a vital part of the economy. It generates more employment, annual economic output, exports, and retail business than any other industry. It directly employs a quarter of a million Americans, and supports another 5 million at dealerships, suppliers and service providers.

U.S.-based carmakers spend more on R&D than any industry – more than $12 billion annually. We also provide healthcare benefits to 2 million Americans, and support nearly 800,000 retirees and spouses with pension benefits.

In short, the economic impact of this industry is substantial, and reaches every state in the nation.

There is also the matter of national pride. GM is one of a handful of U.S.-based manufacturing companies that compete head-to-head with the world’s best in global markets. We are proud that we have become a truly global company, and proud that we are a leader in fast growing markets like China, Brazil and Eastern Europe. We are also proud that American brands like Chevrolet and Cadillac are known and admired around the world.

September 10, 2008

And quoted there from here;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090401892.html

Give Carmakers a Little Respect -- and a Loan


By Warren Brown
Sunday, September 7, 2008; Page G02

CORNWALL, N.Y.

It's too bad that General Motors is little more than an American manufacturing company providing American jobs. It gets no respect from the U.S. government.

The same can be said of Ford and Chrysler, beggars all -- and all of whom are being treated as such by the U.S. political and financial establishments.

The domestic car companies should turn themselves into a foreign government. Iraq is an example. Then, they should declare themselves open for democracy and economic development, whether their native constituents want it or not. That should get the U.S. Treasury dollars flowing.

Better still, maybe the domestic car companies should just get out of making cars and trucks altogether. They could use whatever money they have left after liquidation to set up a business making risky mortgage loans. That should win federal favor.

I mean, it's downright embarrassing, watching Detroit automobile executives running around Washington and the Democratic and Republican national conventions, as they were in Denver and in St. Paul, Minn., over the past two weeks, begging for loans and mostly getting the bum's rush.

It's demeaning.

Now, the U.S. car companies find themselves in the lurch. They are asking the government for what amounts to a $25 billion loan at a very favorable interest rate -- about 4.5 percent per annum -- to help pull themselves up. They are being told to get lost.

It is a hypocritical response.

What gets me is that there is not one foreign car company manufacturing in the United States that has not received millions of dollars in government aid -- usually via local and state tax incentives and abatements that ultimately have a federal tax impact. Toyota in Kentucky got government aid. Hyundai in Alabama got government help. Nissan in Tennessee received hefty tax breaks.

But here are GM, Ford and Chrysler asking for a loan, which they are vowing to repay. Beggars! Profligates! Go away!

"They make stuff. Companies that actually make stuff -- manufacture things -- don't get any respect in America," said Lou Ann Hammond, an automotive and energy writer living in California.

It's crazy.

We bail out financial companies that knowingly made risky loans. We bail out oil-rich dictatorships that promise to embrace democracy.

We eagerly give foreign manufacturers every conceivable tax break to set up a new plant here, put up a new facility there.

But we punish American car manufacturers who are trying to turn themselves around and reduce our national demand for oil in the process.

Those companies and their suppliers provide nearly 25 million American jobs.

They spend $12 billion annually in research and development in the United States.

That amount is likely to increase, thanks to the need to develop new automotive materials, fuels and propulsion systems as we shift to a less-oil-dependent future.

In that regard, domestic car companies largely constitute America's future -- American-owned -- industrial base.

***************************************

Then of course we have the real mother of the problem, the United States Federal Government created unlevel playing field and related Yen subsidy - for Japanese Companies that have received over the years way more money and 'assistence' from their federal Government - to come here and establish sales.

http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/

http://www.autoyensubsidy.org/

[Caleb02]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Oh goody.

A perfect opportunity to showcase GM's facts and fiction website content.

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/





And quoted there from here;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090401892.html







***************************************

Then of course we have the real mother of the problem, the United States Federal Government created unlevel playing field and related Yen subsidy - for Japanese Companies that have received over the years way more money and 'assistence' from their federal Government - to come here and establish sales.

http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/

http://www.autoyensubsidy.org/

FICTION : GM is looking for a government bailout


Fact

We are not seeking a bailout, or a handout. We are talking about loans, which must be repaid in full, with interest.

We are asking Congress to fund a loan program already authorized as part of major energy legislation last year. These loans are specifically designed to accelerate investment in energy-saving technologies, and help carmakers and suppliers more quickly introduce cleaner, more fuel-efficient vehicles.

GM is already investing billions in technologies that help drivers use less fuel, help America reduce its dependence on petroleum, and help GM comply with aggressive new government fuel-economy mandates.

This federal direct-loan program is a powerful and appropriate incentive to speed this transformation, which is vital to our industry, and to the country as a whole.

September 10, 2008

if GM is looking for a loan then why not go to a bank. the last time i checked the government was not the Bank of the United States... If the loans are for bringing new techology to market then why not issue bonds, or new stock or other ways to raise money. my tax dollars go to the defense of America. other then that my tax dollars should be set aside for nothing. The constitution says that only imports may be taxed, thus tax the day lights out of toyota, Diamer, Honda, Chrysler (its owned 19% by the germans thus a foreign company)

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by uvaeeman

What you're describing is a deduction. A tax credit does actually come straight off your tax bill, dollar for dollar.
http://www.finweb.com/taxes/deductions-vs-credits.html

Yep this is correct but there is a hidden hook in these proposals. One that neither Congress nor the automakers will trumpet to you. You've heard of YMMV? In the case of these tax credits it goes something like this: "YTCMV, consult your personal tax consultant."

What buyers of the hybrids have run into is the insidious AMT. OUCH!!!

Generally if you are subject to AMT then you lose the right to the tax credit, ( consult your personal tax consultant ). When the Prius had a $3150 credit a goodly number of buyers were not allowed to take it. AMT got in the way.

Who is subject to AMT? Generally those who are better off and make more money or have more investments. What is the likely demographic for a $40000 vehicle? Generally those who are better off and make more money or have more investments.

__________________________________________________ ______________
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|.................................WARNING LABEL ON ALL PHEVs
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|....Do NOT assume that you qualify for the Federal Tax Credit!! Check First!
| __________________________________________________ _____________

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by Caleb02

if GM is looking for a loan then why not go to a bank. the last time i checked the government was not the Bank of the United States... If the loans are for bringing new techology to market then why not issue bonds, or new stock or other ways to raise money. my tax dollars go to the defense of America. other then that my tax dollars should be set aside for nothing. The constitution says that only imports may be taxed, thus tax the day lights out of toyota, Diamer, Honda, Chrysler (its owned 19% by the germans thus a foreign company)

Actually, no money is set aside by the government. The loan would still come through a bank. The difference is, with government backing GM (and Ford, etc) can get the loan at a much better interest rate. The US is just "guaranteeing" the loan (like if someone co-signs for you getting a loan you might not otherwise qualify for).

Now, the risk is if GM, Ford, etc defaults (goes bankrupt). Of course, if GM, et al, were to default, the country will have problems that are an awful lot worse than a "mere" $25 billion dollar loan guarantee. Those loan guarantees will also help the auto companies to stay out of bankruptcy in the first place, and (maybe) even improve their situation and become more robust, self-sustaining companies. And as long as they don't default, the cost to the US government (we taxpayers) is zero.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by Caleb02

....... Chrysler (its owned 19% by the germans thus a foreign company)

I see little sense in a very small 19% share making Chrysler "foreign". As publicly traded companies, GM and Ford also have a percentage of foreign ownership. And the "germans" that own 19% of Chrysler is actually a company which also has ownership which no doubt includes "foreign" owners from America. As far as I know, Chrysler has NO manufacturing, engineering, or headquarters facilities in Germany.

I'm pretty close to giving Nissan the honors of being called "American". They've practically moved out of Japan, with not just assembly plants, but a great deal of their headquarters and engineering facilities being moved to Tennessee as well.

[Caleb02]

Originally Posted by CaptainDan

I see little sense in a very small 19% share making Chrysler "foreign". As publicly traded companies, GM and Ford also have a percentage of foreign ownership. And the "germans" that own 19% of Chrysler is actually a company which also has ownership which no doubt includes "foreign" owners from America. As far as I know, Chrysler has NO manufacturing, engineering, or headquarters facilities in Germany.

I'm pretty close to giving Nissan the honors of being called "American". They've practically moved out of Japan, with not just assembly plants, but a great deal of their headquarters and engineering facilities being moved to Tennessee as well.

any percentage of foreign owership means they are a foreign company. one might say all companies are foreign since owership crosses countries. So basically companies are like countries in a sense. Maybe at some point companies will replace countries.