Bills introduced in Congress: $7500 PHEV credit, E85 pumps mandated, and more

[jlt0x]

Originally Posted by pontiacgt02

This is nice and all but lets only make the credit for American car companies and vehicles produced in the United States. Since our current congress is so much for keeping jobs here. Yea right!!! Only way this will happen is if they lower the tax on american made goods and increase the tax on imports.

...

Sorry about the political rant.

Hmm, they can make the credit only for American-made vehicles, but it'll include all the foreign competitors that also make cars in the US too...and would include the soon-to-be US-made Toyota competition also.

The primary reason for the credits are to increase spending for newer, more environmentally-conscious fuel in the US which includes all domestic and foreign makes. AND there are normal, everyday American people that work in foreign-owned car manufacturing plants in the US. They along with countless suppliers (of which some provide components and materials to both US & foreign makers) depend on Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Hyundia, etc to do well in the US market.

[rcracedriver]

Originally Posted by jlt0x

They along with countless suppliers (of which some provide components and materials to both US & foreign makers) depend on Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Hyundia, etc to do well in the US market.

SO long as their World headquarters is located in the US, I'm fine with that. Those companies can get their funding from their home countries thank you.

[logansowner]

This is great, but the thing people don't get is that if a Volt costs $40,000 with this credit it does NOT costs $32,500. If you're in a 35% tax area you're looking at saving, well, 35% of that $7500.

Any tax credit I've heard of has always lowered you're taxable income, but isn't actually worth that much is actual money.

[motorman]

Originally Posted by edsuski

78% of us could STOP buying oil to commute to and from work in a Chevy Volt type vehicle. 78% - ZERO oil. What kind of impact would that have on oil prices? Only 22% of the oil we buy comes from the most objectionable sources. We could easily reduce that much using PHEV's that are coming to the market in the next couple of years. THIS IS THE NEEDED FIRST STEP. As our oil consumption continues to go down (more PHEV's are used) and the technology improves incrementally (78% today 80% - 85% soon etc.) we will easily be able to supply all of our domestic oil needs using N. American Oil. (Of course, we could have done this years ago by simply contracting to buy 100% of our non-domestic oil from Canada for $60 a barrel - but that would have taken an energy policy). Drilling in environmentally safe ways should be on the table as should Bio-fuels and nuclear power. But oil wells realistically take a couple of years to permit, construct and start producing. Nuclear plants probably take about 15 years to deliver power. 78% of us could stop consuming oil in the next couple of years if we switched to PHEV's. This makes the most sense. Government subsidies also make sense. 82.5 million Volts at $40K each could have been purchased for what the government estimates the war will end up costing.

Maybe instead of asking Americans to go "shopping" after the 9-11 attacks - President Bush should have simply fired back with a plan that placed a PEHV in every ones driveway. Oh yea - I forgot, that would have taken an energy policy.

where are the road taxes going to come from to build and repair the roads and bridges you will need to drive your PHEV on ???? the state govt are already saying the drop in gasoline use has cut their tax income already.

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by motorman

where are the road taxes going to come from to build and repair the roads and bridges you will need to drive your PHEV on ???? the state govt are already saying the drop in gasoline use has cut their tax income already.

Is your gas tax not a percentage rate? Here in Canukia we pay per liter, but we pay the feds 10 cents, the province 15.5 cents plus 13% on top of those. so with today's price of $1.43 (or $5.08 converted for US gallons and dollars) we are paying 44 cents tax or x3.78x.94=$1.56 a gallon in tax...wonderful.

Anyway, to my point, consumption has gone down a few percent, but prices have risen 20%, so on a percentage tax, there is no way they are losing out.

[gardnet1]

Why don't we first go for E15 in all pumps before moving on to mandating E85. Can the ethonol supply keep up?

Mandating all gas stations will force several smaller outets out of business, thus driving up prices. The mandate should be for all new stations and those that have their tanks and pumps upgraded.

Also who pays for any conversions costs for the stations?

Also we need to encourge non-corn based ethonol as corn is just not a good candidate for ethonol.

[tahoebuilder]

We here in farm country of course want the E85 to go over well. Corn supplies are good at least here in Wisconsin. The Volt is expected to be high at first but I am hoping maybe it will sell well and the oil we import can be cut in half maybe? I have a relative over in Dubai and boy do they ever waste their oil. He said it is 49 cents a gallon for gas. The local shieks fly everywhere and all of the time so if we stopped buying so much, maybe they would learn to ride a moped? Or drive a Volt!!

[Caleb02]

Originally Posted by 63GrandSport001

That would seriously cause an explosion in the expansion of E85 technology as it would create a huge market for it and everyone will race to be the market leader in that new large market.

or it could cause the smaller gas stations to close as they might not be able to upgrade to e85 gas pumps as it is more corrosive then standard gas. This would be a boon to Sunoco, ExxonMobile, Texaco, Conoco/Phillips, and the Major players, basically coporate wellfair. Why should my tax dollars go to people to buy a car or to any company, if a company can not surrive on its own, so be it. Then it closes, If Ford GM or Chrysler goes out of business so be it, it would be their fault. I would say the say for Toyota, Nissan, BMW all need to make it with out government hand outs.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by Z16monte

The model T couldn't meet emissions, or crash standards today, nor would a rattletrap with bad brakes unable to keep up freeway speeds be marketable today. That 13 21 mpg was at 40mph not 60. The manufacturerers probably could make a nice electric car at the price of the Tesla,but how many would they sell?
Ed

These are the same tired excuses Detroit has made for the last several decades. Look at the advances in technology, engineering, chemistry and science that have developed since the Model T. An engineer that uses that excuse should be fired. Let’s stop making excuses and make this stuff happen! I regularly remind the engineers that report to me that if all we needed to hear from them was that it “wasn't possible” or “couldn't be done” - we could hire the gardener to sit in their chair for 1/5 their salary and simply so "No".

Stop making excuses and do it. Stop complaining that retirees are adding $1000 per car and make a car that people will pay $2000 more for - such as the Cadillac CTS. We have become a nation of whiners - where did the “can do attitude” that led us to the moon and completed the Manhattan project go?

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by rcracedriver

I can't believe you bring out the model T to put CAFE on your soapbox. Do you know that the Wright flyer probably got better fuel milage than most airplanes in production today?

CAFE is the main reason we had so many people buying Trucks/SUV's in the first place. CAFE standards only mandated production of fuel efficient vehicles that most Americans didn't want to buy because fuel was so cheap (and in my opinion quite a bargain around $4), yet created no incentives for consumers to purchase more fuel efficient vehicles. That is a failed policy.

The failed policy is the lack of innovation to solve these problems years ago. Don't kid yourself about trucks and SUV's. these vehicles were very cleverly marketd to Americans because they were high profit margin vehicles that were easier and cheaper to manufacture and import (at least in the beginning).

Oddly enough, the Model T example was used in the Senate Energy Policy Forum the other day. We are smarter than this in America. We have engineers who could solve these problems as is evidenced by products like the Volt. Honda has no problem exceeding the most demanding emissions standards. Is that because they are smarter than we are - no. It is simply because they cared to solve the problem. And were lucky enough to have an executive from the catalytic converter team advance into upper management. We can do these things if we put our minds to the problem(s).

Doesn’t it strike anyone as odd that only 5% of the energy we use to drive around is actually needed to move the (usually loan) driver? ICE's are what - maybe 30% efficient? Look at the gains that have been realized by new transmissions and improved aerodynamics alone. Believe me - this is a target rich environment - we just need some people to have the courage to point the way.

Sure Tesla is selling their first cars at $100K each - every last one of them. If it weren’t for such startups - Detroit would still be hiding behind the claim that "battery technology" isn't ready. Stop already and lets work together to solve these problems instead of using the same old rhetoric to discuise our lack of will.

[Caleb02]

Originally Posted by edsuski

These are the same tired excuses Detroit has made for the last several decades. Look at the advances in technology, engineering, chemistry and science that have developed since the Model T. An engineer that uses that excuse should be fired. Let’s stop making excuses and make this stuff happen! I regularly remind the engineers that report to me that if all we needed to hear from them was that it “wasn't possible” or “couldn't be done” - we could hire the gardener to sit in their chair for 1/5 their salary and simply so "No".

Stop making excuses and do it. Stop complaining that retirees are adding $1000 per car and make a car that people will pay $2000 more for - such as the Cadillac CTS. We have become a nation of whiners - where did the “can do attitude” that led us to the moon and completed the Manhattan project go?

That nation is no longer here. It was high jacked by liberals, that think talking solves all problems and that time out works. The WW2 generation understood that evil was evil and that it had to be defeated. To me America has become a nation of never wanting to offend anyone. In Iraq we cant shot back at a religious site even if they are shoot at out troops from that religious site. Our troops need to call hq then get the ok. Do you think in WW2 that would of happened? We have become a nation of people who care way too much out how others see us. I say that detroit needs to say look we can do this but do you want to pay $500 extra, $1,000 extra, or even $15,000 extra just to have a car/truck/suv that gets 100mpg? Sure its doable but at what cost? how would you feel to pay $60,000 for a Ford Focus?

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by motorman

where are the road taxes going to come from to build and repair the roads and bridges you will need to drive your PHEV on ???? the state govt are already saying the drop in gasoline use has cut their tax income already.

I'm sure you realize that that is a simple problem to solve. After all - I will be saving $300 per month on gas after I pay the $48 to recharge my Volt in S. California - half that most other places (i.e. saving $325 per month).

In California I would owe $14.40 per month to pay exactly the same road tax I am paying today. Wow - now my monthly savings is down to only 285.60 per month. When necessary - I'm sure the electric company will be happy to collect this extra $14.40.

Any other problems I can solve for you?

[motorman]

Originally Posted by logansowner

Is your gas tax not a percentage rate? Here in Canukia we pay per liter, but we pay the feds 10 cents, the province 15.5 cents plus 13% on top of those. so with today's price of $1.43 (or $5.08 converted for US gallons and dollars) we are paying 44 cents tax or x3.78x.94=$1.56 a gallon in tax...wonderful.

Anyway, to my point, consumption has gone down a few percent, but prices have risen 20%, so on a percentage tax, there is no way they are losing out.

here in the states the tax is a fixed amount for the feds,18.4 cents per gallon and the states depending on the state you live.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by gardnet1

Why don't we first go for E15 in all pumps before moving on to mandating E85. Can the ethonol supply keep up?

Mandating all gas stations will force several smaller outets out of business, thus driving up prices. The mandate should be for all new stations and those that have their tanks and pumps upgraded.

Also who pays for any conversions costs for the stations?

Also we need to encourge non-corn based ethonol as corn is just not a good candidate for ethonol.

I think we let market forces work for the most part. If only a few stations have E85 and it is significantly cheaper than gasoline (when we stop using corn), then people will find the pump. I don't see the need to mandate it for every station.

[motorman]

Originally Posted by edsuski

I'm sure you realize that that is a simple problem to solve. After all - I will be saving $300 per month on gas after I pay the $48 to recharge my Volt in S. California - half that most other places (i.e. saving $325 per month).

In California I would owe $14.40 per month to pay exactly the same road tax I am paying today. Wow - now my monthly savings is down to only 285.60 per month. When necessary - I'm sure the electric company will be happy to collect this extra $14.40.

Any other problems I can solve for you?

do you think the electrical rates are going to stay the same and was not calif the state that is running out of electrical power and they wanted to be able to control your A/C thermostat in your house if the power demand got too great. also the greens don't want anymore power grids in the state which would be needed if even 50% of the cars in calif were replaced with electric cars