Bills introduced in Congress: $7500 PHEV credit, E85 pumps mandated, and more

[HoosierRon]

Bills introduced to mandate E85 pumps, cut oil tax breaks, $7,500 PHEV credit

Because Detroit's Big Three have sub-investment grade credit ratings, they pay double-digit interest rates to borrow money. Under the bill they would get to borrow money at the lowest government rate, between 4 percent and 5 percent, and would save more than $100 million per $1 billion borrowed. The government could also opt to defer repayment of the loans for up to five years....

The bill includes tax credits of up to $7,500 per plug-in electric vehicle, a move that GM says is essential to helping defray the cost of new vehicles like the rechargeable Chevrolet Volt, due out in 2010.

An energy bill introduced by House Democrats Thursday would require all gas stations to add one alternative fuel E85 pump, a fuel of 85 percent ethanol. Currently, less than 2,000 of the nation's 185,000 gas stations have an E85 pump.

[63GrandSport001]

That would seriously cause an explosion in the expansion of E85 technology as it would create a huge market for it and everyone will race to be the market leader in that new large market.

[PA Dweller]

A $7,500 tax credit would attract more customers to the Volt. That would bring the price down into the low $30's, not too much more than a fully loaded Prius.

[BigAls87Z28]

Lutz said price on Volt will start in the mid 30's.
That would make it a sub 30k car.
E85 pump at every station! Cooool...

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Lutz said price on Volt will start in the mid 30's.
That would make it a sub 30k car.
E85 pump at every station! Cooool...

I just hope it's good for more than the first few thousand Volt's sold.

[A Bum In A Bus]

This is a real winner, not only will it give the consumer an affordable chance to buy green, but could literally save the US auto industry. Why are we waiting congress, lets do this now, procrastination is the thief of time, there is no time to lose, move it, move it.

[pontiacgt02]

This is nice and all but lets only make the credit for American car companies and vehicles produced in the United States. Since our current congress is so much for keeping jobs here. Yea right!!! Only way this will happen is if they lower the tax on american made goods and increase the tax on imports.

However this is a start. We still need Nuclear power and we need to start drilling now here to really have a effect on the rest of the world.

By the way this will take for ever as our current congress also has done nothing except go on vacation. Nothing has been passed.

Sorry about the political rant.

[jason4225]

I like the breaks for the auto companies and the rebate on the Volt, but I have a question about the E-85 pumps. Who is going to pay for it? Most gas stations have such a small profit margin that this would be very difficult to pay for the cost. Another question: Wouldn't the gas stations have to install a new tank just for the E-85? This would cause the cost to skyrocket. The percentage of E-85 vehicles on the roads is so small that it might not be too beneficial right now.

Sorry about being the Devil's advocate but I just wanted to point a few things out.

[Masospaghetti]

Yeah...requiring E85 at every station is really, really stupid. The amount of infrastructure cost would be ridiculous. And since E85 absorbs water readily, any E85 that wasn't used quickly (ie, fuel that was left in the storage tank because nobody has an E85 vehicle) would become useless and potentially damaging to engines.

[HoosierRon]

Originally Posted by jason4225

I like the breaks for the auto companies and the rebate on the Volt, but I have a question about the E-85 pumps. Who is going to pay for it? Most gas stations have such a small profit margin that this would be very difficult to pay for the cost. Another question: Wouldn't the gas stations have to install a new tank just for the E-85? This would cause the cost to skyrocket. The percentage of E-85 vehicles on the roads is so small that it might not be too beneficial right now.

Sorry about being the Devil's advocate but I just wanted to point a few things out.

Pumps for unleaded gas? Who is going to pay for it? Most gas stations only have regular and hi-test pumps. And with gas only costing 25 cents a gallon, they can't afford new pumps.

Besides, there aren't any cars out there that will run on unleaded. You need the lead for lubrication. Put unleaded in existing cars and you will ruin all the seals and gaskets!

Sorry about being the Devil's advocate but I just wanted to point a few things out.

[HoosierRon]

Originally Posted by Masospaghetti

any E85 that wasn't used quickly (ie, fuel that was left in the storage tank because nobody has an E85 vehicle) would become useless and potentially damaging to engines.

Minnesota: E85 sales increase; gasoline sales drop

On Aug. 25, the American Lung Association of Minnesota released a snapshot of Minnesota’s changing fuel consumption. July 2008 sales of E85 in Minnesota were 16 percent higher than sales in July 2007. During that same time period gasoline sales decreased 10 percent – from approximately 233 million gallons in July 2007 to approximately 211.9 million gallons in July 2008. Monthly sales of E85 are currently averaging between 2 million gallons and 2.5 million gallons.

[joemac]

Originally Posted by Masospaghetti

Yeah...requiring E85 at every station is really, really stupid. The amount of infrastructure cost would be ridiculous. And since E85 absorbs water readily, any E85 that wasn't used quickly (ie, fuel that was left in the storage tank because nobody has an E85 vehicle) would become useless and potentially damaging to engines.

Can we come up with any more excuses NOT to do something to change the landscape of what fuels our vehicles?!?!?!?!

[Sgt Beavis]

Originally Posted by joemac

Can we come up with any more excuses NOT to do something to change the landscape of what fuels our vehicles?!?!?!?!

Ahh, so now common sense is considered an excuse..

[steve333]

Finally. I came up with the idea to mandate E-85 pumps over a year ago.
I also want to see hydrogen pumps mandated, and natural gas.

GM could have had a huge head start had they started installing all E-85 capable engines in every car they sell instead of a few.

[Dukeboy01]

Originally Posted by joemac

Can we come up with any more excuses NOT to do something to change the landscape of what fuels our vehicles?!?!?!?!

Why is pointing out real world limitations to the world of biofuels considered making an excuse? Personally, I might support doing it, but only as part of a comprehensive plan that includes drill, drill, drill.

When it comes to our Congress critters mandating anything, the first question to ask is "How much does it cost?"

The second question to ask is "Who pays for it?"

Too often the answer to the first question is "Too much." That never slows down the government when "something" has to be done.

The answer to the second question is always "You do." The oil and gas companies will pass the cost of adding E85 pumps along to you, the consumer, by raising the price of their other products to cover it. If the government "pays" for it through either tax breaks for the companies or by directly funding it out of the Treasury in some manner you, the taxpayer, still pay for it.

In the long run it might need doing, but it ain't gonna be cheap for any of us. That's why I say I'll support it as long as we include drill, drill, drill. The extra oil brought to market by tapping our nation's reserves will help defray the extra cost at the pump that will be tacked on to the price of gas in order to fund E85 and other alternative fuels.

I'm no economist, but a crude picture of it might look like this. If we just did drill, drill, drill the price of gas at the pump might (operative word: MIGHT) drop eventually to under $2 a gallon. That's too low to support any desire to change our energy infrastructure and sooner or later we'd find ourselves in the same place we are today. It might take 10, 20, or 50 years but it would happen again.

If we don't drill and just mandate E85 without adding any new oil, the price of a gallon of gas will remain close to $4 a gallon or go higher to pay for the infrastructure improvements demanded by the government. That's too high. It's killing our economy TODAY. I'm all for new technology and finding new sources of renewable energy, but all of that will take YEARS to develop. We need relief in our energy costs now if we want to have more capital tomorrow to develop the new technology.

If we do both, the price of gas at the pump might level off below $3 a gallon. It's still higher than I personally might like, but it's livable. Some of the savings we would get with just drill, drill, drill are eaten up by funding E85 mandates, but we're all still getting a break compared to the price of energy today. Capital that is now going into our gas tanks is freed up for other uses, including the funding of research into biofuels and everything else.

This is a long term, by which I mean 25+ years, problem. We need to do it all (biofuels, nuclear, and drilling) today, accepting our current technological limitations but working steadily on overcoming them. The problem is that one side of the aisle in Congress doesn't seem to want to include the drill, drill, drill that we need today to pay for whatever alternative energy sources we might develop tomorrow.