Alternative Fuel and Energy News Roundup

[Wolfman01]

Originally Posted by PA Dweller

I am sorry, I know I have seen the number a few times but I forget. How many gallons of oil does the US use per year? Does 8 billion gallons even begin to cut into our oil usage? Maybe I am wrong, but to me this alternative seems to taking forever.

For years now I have heard about alternative fuels but have yet to see any come into play. I don't see it, I can't buy it, I don't hear any news of any local gas stations offering the fuel in the near future, etc. It’s great that they are building the plants but when can I buy the fuel without driving a ridiculous distance?

Maybe it isn’t a concern I have about making the fuel, but more of a concern of distributing the fuel.

It took Brazil 30 years to develop their ethanol infrastructure, and their demographics are far simpler than ours. This is an avenue that this country SHOULD have taken back in the 70's. This country needs to brace itself for $6, $8, and even $10 gasoline before we start seeing significant replacements for it coming online. This is the consequences of being complacent for so long. OPEC showed us what could happen back then, and our government as usual, forgot about it 5 seconds after the dust settled.

Even today, there is still plenty of whining about why we shouldn't be doing this now.

As for your closing statement. The northeast has been woefully underrepresented. Hopefully the new GM/Coskata (sp?) plant to be built in PA will begin to address this.

I have exactly one place in my regular travel area, where I can get E85 for my Impala. That one just opened up a couple of months ago, and we do have several E85 stations around the metromess.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

This year we will replace just over 5% of the U.S. gasoline consumption with ethanol. But since we import about 60% of our oil, we will be replacing 10% of the imported oil. That is about what we get from Saudi Arabia.

Not bad, thats more than I expected.

Originally Posted by Wolfman01

It took Brazil 30 years to develop their ethanol infrastructure, and their demographics are far simpler than ours. This is an avenue that this country SHOULD have taken back in the 70's. This country needs to brace itself for $6, $8, and even $10 gasoline before we start seeing significant replacements for it coming online. This is the consequences of being complacent for so long. OPEC showed us what could happen back then, and our government as usual, forgot about it 5 seconds after the dust settled.

Even today, there is still plenty of whining about why we shouldn't be doing this now.

As for your closing statement. The northeast has been woefully underrepresented. Hopefully the new GM/Coskata (sp?) plant to be built in PA will begin to address this.

I have exactly one place in my regular travel area, where I can get E85 for my Impala. That one just opened up a couple of months ago, and we do have several E85 stations around the metromess.

Yes your first paragraph highlight my fears for the future, things getting much worse before they get better. I guess it was expected since no one prepared for these issues. I been in or through all the states on the Eastern coast minus Maine and never seen an E85 pump or station. So you are correct our part of the country has been "under-represented". Hopefully this new plant you speak of will make some alternative fuels available to me.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

"Algae fuel yields have not yet been accurately determined, but DOE is reported as saying that algae yield 30 times more energy per acre than land crops such as soybeans [Soy: 59.2-98.6 gpa in Indiana], and some estimate even higher yields up to 15000 gpa ." source

So it looks like your 1,770 estimate would be the rock bottom possibility.

Even better, since biodiesel also blows ethanol out of the water for energy density.

Originally Posted by PA Dweller

I agree with what you say and feel this alternative fuel should be funded and researched. However, I am worried that it won't replace oil fast enough. Gas where I am is nearly $4, in another few years gas here will cost as much as it does in Europe. By then the country will be in really bad shape.

I love this alternative but they really need to put the pedal to the medal and make enough of it to replace most oil in the next few years, not a decade. This might not be possible however even with unlimited funding. This is my primary concern.

I do share your fear. My wife and I make what I think is a ton of money, nicely over $100,000 household income per year. Between rising health insurance costs, rising health care copay costs, heating oil, and gasoline, our level of debt increased over $3,000 this past year. We don't even have an adjustable mortgage or high rate credit card, either. My heart goes out to the millions of family getting squished by our current situation.

But long term, getting us off imported petroleum is critical.

Originally Posted by racy

Remember, we don't need a 100% oil replacement to make an enormous impact of the state of affairs in this country. A smaller, more attainable 20% oil offset would have a huge impact. If tomorrow, this country reduced its oil consumption by 20%, it wold send the oil market into an instant tail spin.

I agree.

The ideal goal is not 100% replacement of liquid fuels. Any liquid fuel alternative is an interim solution to electric vehicles, which pull from the grid - which will of be course powerd by solar, wind, nuclear, natgas and coal....not a drop of oil.

I think that's true to a point, and electrical vehicles don't hurt. But I believe biofuels are environmentally neutral - growing the plant takes as much greenhouse gases out of the air as burning them puts into the air. And I don't know that solar or wind power produces as much energy per acre per year as a potential 5000-15000 gallons of biodiesel.

It's at least possible that fuel from algae is more economical, long term, than other renewable fuels.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

I do share your fear. My wife and I make what I think is a ton of money, nicely over $100,000 household income per year. Between rising health insurance costs, rising health care copay costs, heating oil, and gasoline, our level of debt increased over $3,000 this past year. We don't even have an adjustable mortgage or high rate credit card, either. My heart goes out to the millions of family getting squished by our current situation.

But long term, getting us off imported petroleum is critical.

In our old home we had oil heating and the tank costed hundreds of dollars to fill. We have a heat pump in this house, much cheaper to run. I don't know how my parents do it, they make approximately what you make and they always avoided debt. I hope I can be that good with money.

I agree, oil is the enemy and we need to stop using it. As of now things are going to get worse before they get better, I can feel it. Its depressing.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by PA Dweller

In our old home we had oil heating and the tank costed hundreds of dollars to fill. We have a heat pump in this house, much cheaper to run. I don't know how my parents do it, they make approximately what you make and they always avoided debt. I hope I can be that good with money.

I agree, oil is the enemy and we need to stop using it. As of now things are going to get worse before they get better, I can feel it. Its depressing.

Well, our third kid is due any day now and all of our kids will be too young for public school for at least another year and a few months. That's what really kneecaps our budget.

Once all of the kids are in public school, we should have a few years making much more than we spend (we hope) before we get rocked by college tuition expenses.

[EDIT] We're thinking of replacing our oil heat, but we would need a home equity loan to do it. Zillow.com (a website that shows house values) says our home is worth $100,000 more than we owe on it. But I think there's a good risk housing values will keep falling, and I would hate to be one of the families that owes more than their home is worth.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

Well, our third kid is due any day now and all of our kids will be too young for public school for at least another year and a few months. That's what really kneecaps our budget.

Once all of the kids are in public school, we should have a few years making much more than we spend (we hope) before we get rocked by college tuition expenses.

[EDIT] We're thinking of replacing our oil heat, but we would need a home equity loan to do it. Zillow.com (a website that shows house values) says our home is worth $100,000 more than we owe on it. But I think there's a good risk housing values will keep falling, and I would hate to be one of the families that owes more than their home is worth.

Wow congratulations. Kids are expensive, I am too young to have any but I know. Just be careful with a home equity loan, my parents took one out before they sold our last home in New York. With building a new house and possibly needing to add a drive port to the old house to sell it they were running out of money fast.

They didn't need the money however and when it came time to sell the house they canceled the loan. They overlooked the fact that if you cancel it in less than 3 years you had to pay a penalty. Long story short they had to give the bank $8k for nothing.

Good luck, I wish you the best. BTW, what kind of heating system are you considering?

[Michael_S]

Our current heating system is a 10 year old oil boiler for heat and hot water, and with oil above $3.50 per gallon we're on track to spend at least $4000 per year. For cooling, we use three window unit air conditioners and spend at least $1000 per year on the electrical just for those. So if we don't change anything, figure $5000 in annual heating, cooling, and hot water expenses and probably more if the cost of oil goes up.

The biggest thing we're looking at is a geothermal heat pump.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump
From what I'm reading online, and what three different contractors have said, it would cost us between $30,000 and $40,000 to remove our existing heat system, install air ducts all over the house, drill the wells, get the parts, and have it all set up. But once it's in place, you spend $1500 per year total on your heating, central air, and hot water. It's the most efficient home heating and cooling system you can get.

We could upgrade our oil boiler. The one we have works, but it's inefficient and I've had some pretty good sales pitches (??? maybe I'm just a sucker ???) that convince me a new one with an insulated separate water tank and a few other devices could save 30% on our heating costs. Now, 30% of our expenses saves us $1200 a year and that's nice. But we'd still be spending $3800 between heating and cooling, and that's still bad.

We could get a coal furnace. My parents still have one, and it's a real pain in the neck to maintain. But coal is still relatively cheap, so we could probably cut our fuel costs by more than half.

A friend of mine also told me about a partial heat pump system. You keep your existing oil system, and instead have a relatively low capacity heat pump generator (or whatever it's called) outside that's connected to two or three units inside the house. It feeds hot air in the winter or cool air in the summer through those units, and except when it's very hot or below 30 degrees out, your other air conditioners or furnace stay off.

I have no idea what we're going to do. If I get a big raise this year or change jobs, we may actually go for the geothermal heat pump. If not, I think I will probably just caulk, foam, and pink-panther insulate the bejeezus out of the house for the coming winter and then try to figure my next move for next summer.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

Our current heating system is a 10 year old oil boiler for heat and hot water, and with oil above $3.50 per gallon we're on track to spend at least $4000 per year. For cooling, we use three window unit air conditioners and spend at least $1000 per year on the electrical just for those. So if we don't change anything, figure $5000 in annual heating, cooling, and hot water expenses and probably more if the cost of oil goes up.

The biggest thing we're looking at is a geothermal heat pump.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump
From what I'm reading online, and what three different contractors have said, it would cost us between $30,000 and $40,000 to remove our existing heat system, install air ducts all over the house, drill the wells, get the parts, and have it all set up. But once it's in place, you spend $1500 per year total on your heating, central air, and hot water. It's the most efficient home heating and cooling system you can get.

We could upgrade our oil boiler. The one we have works, but it's inefficient and I've had some pretty good sales pitches (??? maybe I'm just a sucker ???) that convince me a new one with an insulated separate water tank and a few other devices could save 30% on our heating costs. Now, 30% of our expenses saves us $1200 a year and that's nice. But we'd still be spending $3800 between heating and cooling, and that's still bad.

We could get a coal furnace. My parents still have one, and it's a real pain in the neck to maintain. But coal is still relatively cheap, so we could probably cut our fuel costs by more than half.

A friend of mine also told me about a partial heat pump system. You keep your existing oil system, and instead have a relatively low capacity heat pump generator (or whatever it's called) outside that's connected to two or three units inside the house. It feeds hot air in the winter or cool air in the summer through those units, and except when it's very hot or below 30 degrees out, your other air conditioners or furnace stay off.

I have no idea what we're going to do. If I get a big raise this year or change jobs, we may actually go for the geothermal heat pump. If not, I think I will probably just caulk, foam, and pink-panther insulate the bejeezus out of the house for the coming winter and then try to figure my next move for next summer.

That's a lot of money to upgrade. Did you ever hear of the Mr Slim heating/cooling systems? This is something we considered doing in our old home. It doesn't require them to install duct work, just a suction/discharge line running between the indoor evaporator and outdoor condenser/compressor. It might be worth some research, could save you some money.

I have a heat pump that handles all the heating for our home and we have been happy with it. Our last home was half the size of this one and we spent an extra $1000 a year heating and cooling that house since it had no insulation, window air conditioners, and a 25 year old oil heating system.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by PA Dweller

That's a lot of money to upgrade. Did you ever hear of the Mr Slim heating/cooling systems? This is something we considered doing in our old home. It doesn't require them to install duct work, just a suction/discharge line running between the indoor evaporator and outdoor condenser/compressor. It might be worth some research, could save you some money.

The partial heat pump system I so awkwardly described in my second to last paragraph is the Mr. Slim system. That's one of the options we're considering.

We just need to figure out how much it costs to install and run it, and how much it would save us.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

The partial heat pump system I so awkwardly described in my second to last paragraph is the Mr. Slim system. That's one of the options we're considering.

We just need to figure out how much it costs to install and run it, and how much it would save us.

Oh I understand now. Well I heard on a commercial awhile ago it was like $2400 for 3 rooms.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by PA Dweller

Oh I understand now. Well I heard on a commercial awhile ago it was like $2400 for 3 rooms.

Right. It's relatively cheap. But I need to know how much it cuts oil use. If we're looking at a 50% cut in oil use, it pays for itself in at most three years. That would be nice -- but none of the websites I'm seeing offer reasonable estimates or savings estimate calculators.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

Right. It's relatively cheap. But I need to know how much it cuts oil use. If we're looking at a 50% cut in oil use, it pays for itself in at most three years. That would be nice -- but none of the websites I'm seeing offer reasonable estimates or savings estimate calculators.

I understand, they probably need to calculate how many BTU's your home needs to be properly heated. They will probably want to do an estimate before they can tell you. BTW, did they ever say why the heat pump can't handle all your heating?

[Michael_S]

Well, we have radiators instead of forced air ducts. I'm sure a heat pump could handle all of our heating needs, with maybe some extra electric space heaters on the coldest days of the year.

But we have radiators and not forced air ducts. So we would need thousands of dollars to migrate from radiators to the ducts. If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I figure it makes sense to go whole-hog and opt for a geothermal heat pump instead of a normal outside air heat pump.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

Well, we have radiators instead of forced air ducts. I'm sure a heat pump could handle all of our heating needs, with maybe some extra electric space heaters on the coldest days of the year.

But we have radiators and not forced air ducts. So we would need thousands of dollars to migrate from radiators to the ducts. If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I figure it makes sense to go whole-hog and opt for a geothermal heat pump instead of a normal outside air heat pump.

If your home is brick, stone or concrete block and has a south facing wall, a trom wall can do wonders for winter heating, especially if your home is two story. When I lived in Denver I knew of folks who had to vent SURPLUS heat even on VERY cold days! But then again, Denver is known for very sunny winter days, and a trom wall is solar powered. But they can be fairly inexpensive to build if one is resourceful.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

Well, we have radiators instead of forced air ducts. I'm sure a heat pump could handle all of our heating needs, with maybe some extra electric space heaters on the coldest days of the year.

But we have radiators and not forced air ducts. So we would need thousands of dollars to migrate from radiators to the ducts. If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I figure it makes sense to go whole-hog and opt for a geothermal heat pump instead of a normal outside air heat pump.

If you go with the traditional HVAC system you will need ductwork, but the Mr Slim doesn't and it can do heating and cooling. I was always taught in school heat pumps don't really work well in extremely cold environments (Like where I live) but it gets into the single digits and lower here during the winter but the heat pump keeps our house warm. About 68 F to 70 F.

Some heat pump systems also have supplemental electrical heating elements to make up for additional heating the system can't handle on its own. You should really consult an expert and get a clear answer from them, I know they have people that do this as a profession.