$4.00 Gas A Reality

[Smellhound]

Originally Posted by sigma

The US is going to have to get over its obsession with subburbs, 12- lane interstates (that are always parking lots by the time they are finished), and cars.

We are going to have to start doing some serious urban planning, verticle construction and a massive expansion of mass transit which should not only connect the inner cities, but also link the subburbs to the cities.

I know everyone likes to rail on San Francisco and the Bay Area in general (or the Metropolis known as the Eastern Seaboard from DC to Boston) but they do have mass transit and verticle construction figured out. For a great example as to how this works google BART (or just click on the link).

I agree with you 100%. I don't even drive my car on weekends anymore (if I have to go to the store, I walk, if it's cold I wear a heavier jacket) and I don't really miss my car.If it wasn't for the fact that over the last 20-30 years...the people who plan our comminities shunned effective mass transit for sprawling suburbs and lack of efficient and available mass transit...I would hardly drive at all.The 1990's, with our economy rolling along and the government running much smaller deficits than now....that was the time when 'our leaders' in Washington should have had some forward looking thinking and used those good times to actually do something productive with that economy we had. Instead, either our country as a whole decided we'd rather 'live for today' or the politicians just found it to easy to not promote transit systems that would be effective.I know if I had a train or subway station within even a mile of my house that led to a downtown area (or the airport, or a shopping mall), I would use the transit system all of the time instead of driving.

[MNdudeswitz]

Originally Posted by Smellhound

I know if I had a train or subway station within even a mile of my house that led to a downtown area (or the airport, or a shopping mall), I would use the transit system all of the time instead of driving.

I hear ya, I am lucky that I have something like that:







Its just blocks from my house

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by VivienM

In other words, start living like socialistic Europeans.

That's just not going to happen, at least for as long as there is democracy in North America.

Why are we turning common sense into a political issue? Is it our right, as Americans - and as bestowed upon us by the Constitution and the definition of Democracy - to ignore the rising cost of our lifestyle? Just because you can afford it, to hell with everyone else? Is that what it means to be a Democracy? So now, we're going to implement economic segregation? What are we going to do when our economy grinds to a screeching halt after being carried on the backs of the withering middle class? When blue-collar Americans can't get to work or heat their homes, what then? Wouldn't it be prudent to start weening ourselves now, under our own terms and at our own pace, instead of being cut off at the whim of the market? When did we become so shortsighted and self-centered? Rent the movie "The End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of The American Dream", it's a good movie. Those crazy 'Socialist Europeans' do have some good ideas when it comes to transportation. Is that what it means now to be American? To have an SUV and live in a suburb named after some natural feature that was the first thing bulldozed for the McHome? Is that all that we are now? The longer we wait to implement change, the harder it's going to be, and the more it will cost us in both financial and human terms. Next time, try leaving the 'flag waving' and Jingoism at home when posting. Passion is great, sure, but without a clearly defined purpose or thought, it's just raving. America didn't become great by sitting on its collective ass and ignoring a problem.

Ah. You're Canadian. Didn't see that. Not changing my post mind you, just didn't realize you were Canadian.

[sigma]

Originally Posted by VivienM

In other words, start living like socialistic Europeans.

That's just not going to happen, at least for as long as there is democracy in North America.

Umm... that's just silly. Tony Blair, Jaques Chirac and Merkle (forgot her first name) and and were democratically elected. In fact if you want to get techincal about it Britain and California are probably more democratic than most places because they have mechanisms to remove unpopular officials from office. In Britian, Parliament can have a vote of no confidence, throwing out the PM and absolving his cabinet of ministers. In California, they have a recall referendum (as we all remember).

How we fund highways in this country is an extremely socialistic. The government pays for the original capital expendature (billions of dollars) and all we have to pay is a pentenence of the maintanence costs with a gasoline tax. Right now we have enough state and federal highway in this country to pave a road to the moon and back 10 times and congestion continues to get worse.

Originally Posted by Saturn69

That's all fine and dandy, but I live in a rural area and commute to the city. The only jobs in rural areas are fast-food, convenience store or farming, so I drive to the city. Why not move to the city? Well, higher property taxes, higher home prices, higher crime, and more closely packed neighbors. Sure, it's a choice for me to live where I live. When the kids are out of school I intend to sell the house and move to the city, but I will NOT raise my kids in the Omaha/Council Bluffs area. Besides, the view from my deck of the sun setting over the Iowa hills is just too nice to replace with the view of the next door neighbor's house. So, until then, see y'all on the Interstate in the A.M..

I understand the concerns of the rural and suburban communities about losing access to cities, and about them losing their importance in American culture. I'm not advocating moving people out of the homes and back into the cities.

What I am proposing is that we concentrate growth into the urban centers to reduce future congestion on the freeways which you travel. I'm also proposing to build rail to suburban communities and to re-established train service from rural communities back to major cities as another way to move things from Point A to Point B. I am proposing that the government put as much funding and effort into building rail as it does into building freeways.

There many potiental benefits. Less oil consumption = Less dependence on foreign oil. Less congestion = less smog and healthier air, less cancer, less asthma, and sunsets that aren't brown (Houston, Los Angeles are you listening?). Plus by concentrating the growth, we help to preserve farm land (so we can grow our food and fuel) and also can preserve even more areas as parks and reserves.

Reinvesting in urban centers by concentrating growth would also improve the roads you drive on to get to work, improve and enlarge police forces to improve saftey for not only those who work their but also those who commute their, and improving the school system helps to generate more business, long term, for the company you work for. There is no downside to reinvesting in America's cities.

[sigma]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

Why are we turning common sense into a political issue? Is it our right, as Americans - and as bestowed upon us by the Constitution and the definition of Democracy - to ignore the rising cost of our lifestyle? Just because you can afford it, to hell with everyone else? Is that what it means to be a Democracy? So now, we're going to implement economic segregation? What are we going to do when our economy grinds to a screeching halt after being carried on the backs of the withering middle class? When blue-collar Americans can't get to work or heat their homes, what then? Wouldn't it be prudent to start weening ourselves now, under our own terms and at our own pace, instead of being cut off at the whim of the market? When did we become so shortsighted and self-centered? Rent the movie "The End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of The American Dream", it's a good movie. Those crazy 'Socialist Europeans' do have some good ideas when it comes to transportation. Is that what it means now to be American? To have an SUV and live in a suburb named after some natural feature that was the first thing bulldozed for the McHome? Is that all that we are now? The longer we wait to implement change, the harder it's going to be, and the more it will cost us in both financial and human terms. Next time, try leaving the 'flag waving' and Jingoism at home when posting. Passion is great, sure, but without a clearly defined purpose or thought, it's just raving. America didn't become great by sitting on its collective ass and ignoring a problem.

AMEN... Preach it Reverend.

[Mikkoo]

Originally Posted by give_it_all_

Congrats, now you pay what Canada has been paying for a while lol.

And still it's not even close to what where paying in Europe. You might not need maniditory raising of cafe regs after all. High price gas will eventuallyforce many out of gas hogs.

[kmacleod]

Originally Posted by MNdudeswitz

I hear ya, I am lucky that I have something like that:







Its just blocks from my house

AHHH Yes..... the Hiawatha line. I only wish a LRT line like this ran near my house and work........ .

Ken

[VivienM]

Originally Posted by sigma

Umm... that's just silly. Tony Blair, Jaques Chirac and Merkle (forgot her first name) and and were democratically elected. In fact if you want to get techincal about it Britain and California are probably more democratic than most places because they have mechanisms to remove unpopular officials from office. In Britian, Parliament can have a vote of no confidence, throwing out the PM and absolving his cabinet of ministers. In California, they have a recall referendum (as we all remember).

Yes, but European voters have different preferences.

The same types of things that appeal to American voters would NOT sell well in Europe, and vice versa.

Asking voters for significant sacrifice, especially when it comes to energy use, is a very quick way to losing the next election in the United States and probably Canada as well.

[VivienM]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

Is that what it means now to be American? To have an SUV and live in a suburb named after some natural feature that was the first thing bulldozed for the McHome? Is that all that we are now?

As far as I can tell, yes. Being (North) American means feeling entitled to consume large quantities of natural resources and screw any environmental consequences.

[jokuvaan]

There's joke saying in Finland that:
"when fuel prise goes to X, you will only see familiar pals on the road"


*explanation: only very rich can afford to drive cars anymore at that point ;P

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by VivienM

As far as I can tell, yes. Being (North) American means feeling entitled to consume large quantities of natural resources and screw any environmental consequences.

Well, that's not what it means to me. I wasn't talking environmental consequences, I was talking societal consequences, about our economy dependent on the generosity and marketing whims of foreign corporations. At least those 'Socialistic Europeans' have a clue what to do when gas costs too much for most of the workforce - the very backbone of the economy, and therefore the Nation - can't afford it. Look beyond today. Do we want to be a proactive society or a reactive society? It's a lot like the American attitude towards health and fitness; why exercise and eat right when I feel fine today? Healthy eating is for Volvo-driving, Greenpeace lovin' Hippies....oh....my chest....thump. We treat ourselves like crap until someting goes wrong instead of doing the right thing and keeping illness at bay, much the same way we continue to promote consumerism and anti-conservation and then complain that gas costs so much. Well, WASP, park the frackin' Tahoe. No one is entitled to anything.

[TimR]

Originally Posted by Mikkoo

And still it's not even close to what where paying in Europe. You might not need maniditory raising of cafe regs after all. High price gas will eventuallyforce many out of gas hogs.

The difference is Europe has (for the most part) the infrastructure to move people around without cars. We don't ....we are spread out over long distances and much of our economy is defined by farming and rural interests, so it will hit us harder economically than many European countries.

Regular is 1.03L right now (ie $4.12/US Gallon), I still need a truck so thats the way it goes....

[editor]

Originally Posted by VivienM

Yes, but European voters have different preferences.

The same types of things that appeal to American voters would NOT sell well in Europe, and vice versa.

Asking voters for significant sacrifice, especially when it comes to energy use, is a very quick way to losing the next election in the United States and probably Canada as well.

I would agree with that - succinctly put.

[Family Man]

The main problem with these high prices is not the oil companies, but it's the fault of US government policy.

Back in the mid 90s, I remember filling my car is SC for slightly less than $1 a gal. At that time, gas sold here anywhere between $1.40 to $1.70 US a gal ( between .50 and .60 cents a liter cdn).

The price here in Montreal today is $1.09 a litre, or about $3.70 a gallon, a little more than double from the 90s. However stories of fuel prices in the US seen to idicate that Americans are paying almost triple what it cost...

Main culprit? I'm no econimist, but I think a large reason is due to the depreciating US dollar. In the mid 90s, it cost the Americans 73 cents to buy one canadian dollar. Today, it now costs almost 90 cents. Not only do american have to deal with the higher price of crude, but the exchange rates must also be factored in.

Unfortunately, I do not see any positive signs from the US economy that will stop the drop in value; slowing economy, default mortages, higher consumer and government debt will continue to push the dollar down.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by TimR

The difference is Europe has (for the most part) the infrastructure to move people around without cars. We don't ....we are spread out over long distances and much of our economy is defined by farming and rural interests, so it will hit us harder economically than many European countries.

Regular is 1.03L right now (ie $4.12/US Gallon), I still need a truck so thats the way it goes....

Yes....I live in Iowa and I regularly drive to Georgia. Cities and suburbs should have some sort of mass transit system between them, to eliminate congestion if nothing else. The whole "we are spread out more than Europe" line only works so long as you don't think about why more American cities don't have light rail to handle transportation between the suburbs to the major manufacturing/business/employment centers. You don't think it's going to hit us hard when the people who live in the suburbs can no longer afford the gas to get to and from work and they have no other options? Would it hurt us more if we took the Federal excise tax and put it towards developing light rail for cities with populations in excess of 100K people? I know Canada is spread out a lot more than we are, but we aren't talking about putting in mass transit between every State or Province, we can't be connected on that level, but to deny the need for some sort of fail-safe mass public transportation network is just plain foolish.