By the numbers: June 2008

[BGH]

Showing most brands DSR adjusted gains or losses for June.

Mini did the best, up 40%

HUMMER did the worst, down 54%.

land Rover hadn't reported when it was printed but jeep was down 32% and GMC was down 14%.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/01/b...t-bad-edition/

[TheGeneral]

YTD change 2007
Malibu +45.6%
cobalt +18.5%
focus +27.6%
fusion +11.7%
G6 +22.5%

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html

[PhishPhood]

6 month sales
Civic ....205K units
Corolla..195K
Focus...124K
Cobalt..114K
Sentra... ???
Elantra...62K
Mazda3..62K

Camry..........240K
Mal/Aura/G6..207K
Accord.........206K
Altima.......... ???
Fus/Mil/MKZ..124K
Sonata..........66K
Sebring..........48K
Mazda6..........33K

[BGH]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

6 month sales
Civic ....205K units
Corolla..195K
Focus...124K
Cobalt..114K
Sentra... ???
Elantra...62K
Mazda3..62K

Camry..........240K
Mal/Aura/G6..207K
Accord.........206K
Altima.......... ???
Fus/Mil/MKZ..124K
Sonata..........66K
Sebring..........48K
Mazda6..........33K

It's even more impressive for the Honda products once you consider its 95%+ retail.

[AMERICA 123]

Yes it is - assuming that's correct - it certainly could be.

Just as impressive, if we take PhishPhood's chart and add in the rest for GM - the Buick La Crosse, the Chevrolet Impala, and the Pontiac Grand Prix to start.

That gets GM another 20,144 - so approx 227k for the month.

You could even justify another 89 Monte Carlos/GTO 's and even the G8 for another 1536.

That brings us to roughly 228.6 / 229.5k for GM and if you want to round - 'probably' 229k.

[jkr2106]

yea...but...what about ES and Avalon sales for TMC or TL sales for Honda or Maxima sales for Nissan?

[BGH]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Yes it is - assuming that's correct - it certainly could be.

Just as impressive, if we take PhishPhood's chart and add in the rest for GM - the Buick La Crosse, the Chevrolet Impala, and the Pontiac Grand Prix to start.

That gets GM another 20,144 for the month - so approx 227k for the month.

You could even justify another 89 Monte Carlos/GTO 's and even the G8 for another 1536.

That brings us to roughly 228.6 / 229.5k for GM and if you want round up, 229k.

Someone posted a link here a few months ago, and not a single Honda was double digits, most where only 3 to 5% fleet. Considering the Accord is all new and the Civic has a dealer markup its not out of the question that they're both 95%+ retail. At least that's how it was a few months ago.

The G6/Aura/Malibu are direct competitors to other midsized sedans in their features and pricing. The other cars you mentioned are directed at other market segments.

We can start including the TSX, TL for Honda, and for Toyota you have the Avalon, and ES.

[johnny smallblock]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

6 month sales
Camry..........240K
Mal/Aura/G6..207K
Accord.........206K
Altima.......... ???
Fus/Mil/MKZ..124K
Sonata..........66K
Sebring..........48K
Mazda6..........33K

Phish, why did you combine the platform sales of GM and FoMoCo? I know the vehicles are closely related, but if GM or Ford wants all the sales to count together, they shouldn't design different sheetmetal and sell them under different names in different divisions.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by johnny smallblock

Phish, why did you combine the platform sales of GM and FoMoCo? I know the vehicles are closely related, but if GM or Ford wants all the sales to count together, they shouldn't design different sheetmetal and sell them under different names in different divisions.

In the past Ford always used to report Taurus/Sable numbers together and in fact they were the same vehicle. Toyota does the same with it's 4 door and 2 door versions. Honda the same with the Accord. It seems reasonable to get a real company-by-company picture of the midsized market to combine the 3 GM nameplates that are in fact the same. It is my own viewpoint admittedly but I think it's realistic.

[AMERICA 123]

Someone posted a link here a few months ago, and not a single Honda was double digits, most where only 3 to 5% fleet. Considering the Accord is all new and the Civic has a dealer markup its not out of the question that they're both 95%+ retail. At least that's how it was a few months ago.

That's in the direction I'm going - with the caveat that right now ( last 2.5 months) - things are so bizarre you must check everything thrice - real bad time to assume - even if its 'all but certain'. I'm not disagreeing at all - or agreeing fully - yet.

The G6/Aura/Malibu are direct competitors to other midsized sedans in their features and pricing. The other cars you mentioned are directed at other market segments.

We can start including the TSX, TL for Honda, and for Toyota you have the Avalon, and ES.

Originally Posted by jkr2106

yea...but...what about ES and Avalon sales for TMC or TL sales for Honda or Maxima sales for Nissan?

Ok, look, for the sake of honest discussion, you show the me 'logic' as to why and why not the La Crosse, the Impala, the Grand Prix, and the Monte Carlo should not be counted here against the Camry/Solara, and the Accord Sedan and Coupe and should instead be counted against the Avalon.

The ES300 and the TL clearly do not belong here.

Yes, I agree the there is a good case to made and heard and probably/possibly 'won' for counting the TSX and the Maxima.

The most direct competitor from the Asian makes to the Buick Lucerne is the Toyota Avalon - even with its older buyer demographics - and yet having said that, there is value in developing yet more inclusive numbers for 4 Dr Sedans that includes both of them as well.

Going the otherway ie less inclusive, there is a useful number to look at between 4dr Camrys, 4dr Accords, and 4dr. Malibus,Auras, and G6s.

Oh, and btw, Toyota is not the decider of what competes with what - not here , not in AMERICA.

No, they came late to the party, and they are offering their product as an alternative to what we in America already have established.

PhishPhood's count while the least useful here for something other than a 'puff' count for Toyota is in fact, still a number to look at.

The other counts are at least as useful - really all of them as a bundle are best.

I'm neither for or against just one particular number but I am more than somewhat opposed to that approach per se.

[jkr2106]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Ok, look, for the sake of honest discussion, you show the me 'logic' as to why and why not the La Crosse, the Impala, the Grand Prix, and the Monte Carlo should not be counted here against the Camry/Solara, and the Accord Sedan and Coupe and should instead be counted against the Avalon.

The ES300 and the TL clearly do not belong here.

Yes, I agree the there is a good case to made and heard and probably/possibly 'won' for counting the TSX and the Maxima.

My theory about counting the Maxima, TL (and TSX), and ES is that they are all the luxury versions of a mid-sizer (Altima, Accord, Camry). To count the LaCrosse (GM's fwd lux midsizer), I think one must also count competition's lux midsize offerings.

I mentioned the Avalon because it is basically a larger Camry and I see the Impala as a larger Malibu (yes, I know they are on different platforms). Again my reasoning is that to count both of GM's fwd programs (epsilon/w-body), you have to count both of Toyota's programs (camry-es/avalon)
That said, I see where you are going. The Lucerne is an Avalon competitor I hadn't considered. I suppose they could be compared instead.

That said, I think you are right to bring in both of GM's midsize platforms, I would just exclude the LaCrosse (but not the Impala or Grand Prix) if one doesn't count the ES or TL+TSX or Maxima.

...I'd also add in the 9-3/9-5 with the LaCrosse sales.

[91 s-10baja]

[GMfan1111]

Chrysler's numbers do not surprise me. Many of their models especially the Sebring/Avenger entry level sedans are nowhere near the level of their competitors in terms of quality and refinement (the LX cars are an exception to this). and even with the $2.99 gas promotion it still wasn't enough to lure customers in. What Chrysler needs to do is accelerate the pace of Project D and to also take a page out of GM's book and introduce other new incentives and sales when they are needed rather than rely on one sale or incentive period to make things better.

[BGH]

The epsilon cars both have base I4 and optional V6, all mags use an epsilon car to compare against the Altima, Camry segment.

The Impala has a base V6 and optional V8. Probably more oriented towards other american large sedans like the 300 and Taurus.

It's also harder to make an argument for the Impala to be joined with the epsilon cars because after all it is on a different platform and is in fact a different car.

Unlike the Malibu, Aura, and G6 are pretty much the same car with some differentiation.

Would you add Tahoe sales to Lambda totals?

[gardnet1]

Originally Posted by GMfan1111

Chrysler's numbers do not surprise me. Many of their models especially the Sebring/Avenger entry level sedans are nowhere near the level of their competitors in terms of quality and refinement (the LX cars are an exception to this). and even with the $2.99 gas promotion it still wasn't enough to lure customers in. What Chrysler needs to do is accelerate the pace of Project D and to also take a page out of GM's book and introduce other new incentives and sales when they are needed rather than rely on one sale or incentive period to make things better.

I don't know about that. Chrysler's cars were down 50% for the month; more than trucks. This tells me that even the fleets weren't buying Chrysler's cars. that is a major warning signal when gas is $4+ per gallon and your car sales go down.