Remembering Oldsmobile

[EPA2]

Here's a Mel Torme Oldsmobile commercial:

+ YouTube Video

[EPA2]

Here's an Oldsmobile dealer (from Chicago area) commercial from 1982. It's a nice look back at the entire 1982 Oldsmobile line:

+ YouTube Video

[F14CRAZY]

Originally Posted by EPA2

Here's a 1970 442 commercial that's pretty hip.

Are they officially pronounced as "four four two" instead of "four forty two"? My dad has always said the latter

[91 s-10baja]

Originally Posted by F14CRAZY

Are they officially pronounced as "four four two" instead of "four forty two"? My dad has always said the latter

Yes it is four four two, not four forty two. It stood for four barrell four speed and dual exhaust! Until the 80's calais 442, then I don't have a clue!

[page2171]

Originally Posted by 91 s-10baja

Until the 80's calais 442, then I don't have a clue!

Maybe it was 4 cylinders, 4 valves per cylinder, two cams?

[EPA2]

The 1990 - 1991 Calais based 442 was officially called the "Quad 442". There were two version the W40 and W41. The W40 had the 180 horsepower Quad4 and W41 had the more powerful 190 horsepower Quad4.

Here's a picture of a 1991 Quad 442 W41:

[EPA2]

Originally Posted by F14CRAZY

Are they officially pronounced as "four four two" instead of "four forty two"? My dad has always said the latter

91 s-10baja, is correct Oldsmobile pronounced 442 - "four - four - two" not "four - forty - two". However in the last 20 years most people call a 442 a "four - forty - two". I even sometimes make that mistake.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by 91 s-10baja

Yes it is four four two, not four forty two. It stood for four barrell four speed and dual exhaust! Until the 80's calais 442, then I don't have a clue!

Not quite.

That is correct - initially ie for the ( approx ) first 2 - 4 years of production.

While RWD, it actually was 'redefined' once or twice due to configuration changes in terms of standard powertrains and so forth.

All this was somewhat 'unofficial' some of the time, I think - can't remember exactly.

************************************

I don't like saying it, but the thread starter article isn't really all that well done.

There are many important things that are missed, and some significant inaccuracies both small and large.

It could however serve as the basis of a robust, but rewritten article.

*********************

Just some random memories.........

Oldsmobile was the third brand in the USA to ever break total annual sales over one million a year and that stood for quite some time.

Even today, that list is not as big as you might think nor has it happened as often as you might assume........... - they did it in Model Year ? '85 and also did something impressively similar in the Model Year '84 - ie just under ???.

Can't remember if it was in terms of Calender Year or the much more useful Model Year - which I think it was but anyway in 1984 they actually outsold the Ford nameplate - if you didn't count ( full size ? ) station wagon sales. Can't remember if that was the more obvious case of just 'passenger vehicles' - believe it or not I'm pretty certian that included part of or all non commercial HD truck sales - anyway, it was a shocker whatever it was - in more ways than one.

Without the 'wagons' whatever that meant, Olds beat Ford in this measurement by approximately 50 - 60k.

Ford's Country Squire put Ford ahead by about 35 - 45k. Or maybe it was the other way around - but it was close, real close - centered around approximately a 920,000 ? / million each.

This btw, doesn't reflect poorly on Olds wagon sales in the least - they were at least "ok", but it was more about the absolutely stellar performance by the Country Squire .

( Both were helped by the fact Chrysler's Mini Vans were just getting started and at one point, could not be built fast enough )


Part of this Oldsmobile success for both years was fueled by the not only the 88 and 98, but most definitely by 'both' Cutlass types ( RWD / FWD ) ie the Cutlass Supreme and the Cutlass Ciera - and the early intro of the first FWD '85 98 somewhere in the spring / early summer period of '84 depending on where you were.

( They also sold the p**s out of both Cutlass families in California during this time )

The Cutlass nameplate really started ramping up big from 68 /69 on and was in 2door or convertible form especially, an American sweetheart - and more than once was America's best selling car or 'passenger vehicle' .

************************

Oldsmobile's were in my family one way or the other from 1899 ( yep ) thru today - part of the appeal during much of that time for 'us' and for many others were advanced engineering, durability, reliability, tasteful styling inside and out, well rounded 'performance' ( we were very picky about ordering a car - got the good stuff some of which was relatively rare).

Oldsmobile for many long stretches in its existence had incredible owner loyalty rates, and also extremely strong appeal for engineers, and other technical manufacturing people including large bunches of highly successful upper level management from all kinds of manufacturing firms both large and small.

I remember going to Cape Canaveral in the mid sixties and while there was an unusually 'large' ( relatively speaking - only ) - and 'interesting' ( French, Italian, English - and ugly German ) import car presence by far and a way most were a Chrysler product of some sort - or an Oldsmobile.

Oldsmobile's last peak performance was obviously in that '84 - '85 period, but the other 'interesting' - and sad part of the story was a very rapid decline from about mid late '86 on 'till '90.

Every single negative development from the '50s thru the '80s came home to roost - achieved a critical mass.

Personally, although it can be hard to see - or admit for some, one of the most important root problems for both Oldsmobile and GM started growing in the mid fifties - this is complex in detail but simple in core concept.

Internal politics - along Divisional lines - about everything that mattered.

If you really look at it carefully, Oldsmobile thru out its life got sandwiched in various ways ( more than any of the others in the later half ) - although Pontiac and GM truck / GMC came close.

Over simplified but still on the money;

It was the mismanagement of all the brands versus Chervrolet .... and the Chevy smallblock.

GM basically started breaking faith with Durant's highly successful model of brand management

Oh, and there was also the Cadillac people - who were still sore about LaSalle and some other stuff like that and were desirous of keeping Buick - and Oldsmobile off their turf and in their place.

Heck, Cadillac even tried to kill the Rocket V8 !

[Ttple]

I say kill Buick and Saturn and bring back Olds.

[AMERICA 123]

Here is a great article on the Rocket V8.

Foreword
Author F. Gibson Butler participated in the creation of the first Oldsmobile Rocket V-8. Mr. Butler wrote this story in 1977 after retiring from Oldsmobile where he was a member of the postwar engine design group.


The Rocket Engine Story by One Who Was There
by Gibson Butler

R. V. Hutchinson, who was an Oldsmobile engineer prior to transferring to Product Studies #5 when C. L. McCuen was appointed 1st Vice President in charge of engineering, designed and build a heavy in-line 6-cylinder (850 lbs.) spark ignition engine for high-compression studies. C. G. Kettering had request this design and build for G. M. Research Fuels and Lubricants department high performance number fuel/high compression ratio studies. The overhead valve engine was designed to operate at compression ratios up to 12.5:1.

The high-compression ratio engine studies resulted from the availability of triptane gasoline, a high performance number reference. T. A. Boyd, head of Organic Chemistry (later called Fuels and Lubricants) was instrumental in developing the isomerization of normal heptane to create triptane. This took place in 1941-42 as part of the War effort. In fact, G. M. Research built a small refinery in Redford Township to make triptane. Tank cars (one at a time) would be furnished by the Army/Navy at a very nominal cost for their aircraft engine research and development. The G. M. Research high compression engine studies received considerable publicity from the news media.

In the immediate post war period, Oldsmobile worked diligently to return to automobile production with the in-line "L" head 6- and 8-cylinder engines as power plants. The 1945-46 strike by the U. A. W. against G. M. delayed new car introduction and future engine designs. In January 1946, we were permitted to return to work in the engineering building (a number of us has worked at the Proving Ground with temporary design facilities during the strike). Upon returning to our Engineering Department, Gilbert Burrell, Chief Draftsman of the Motor Group, began to make a number of 3/8th scale layouts of various engine/driveline/vehicle concepts. Gilbert always retained a drafting board in addition to a desk for his own use. Gilbert Burrell's conceptual layouts considered swept-back bodies, square backs, two-doors, four-doors, etc. with in-line and V-8 engines. Always the 90-degree V-8 provided the best "packaging" as well as product potential. Gilbert was doing these layouts as a matter of personal interest rather than an assignment, his studies occurring while continuing to direct the efforts of the engine design men.

Burrell had been at his "private noodling" effort for five or six weeks without any interference when J. F. Wolfram, Oldsmobile Chief Engineer, stopped by to converse with him. Noting the drawings, Wolfram asked Burrell what he was doing. Together they went through the "stack." Impressed by the work, Wolfram invited Sherrod E. Skinner, Oldsmobile General Manager, to review the effort. Within the next day to two, Skinner, Wolfram, and Burrell thoroughly went over the carious conceptual designs and layouts. As a result, an advanced design group was set up with Burrell in charge. O. L. Anderson, George Jones, George Johnson, and Art Olmsted were among those assigned to this group. Their assignment was to design a new 90-degree V-8 spark ignition engine, a new chassis and vehicle concepts.

Anatole "Tony" Wouters, Carburetor Engineer, and I were requested to learn as much as possible about the G. M. Research (Kettering) high-compression engine studies. We held conversations with Daryl Caris and T. A. Boyd of G. M. Research, and R. V. Hutchinson and John Dolza of Product Studies #5 and #4 respectively. One additional conversation was arranged with C. L. McCuen, Vice President in charge of Engineering. Burrell also attended this meeting. McCuen was Motor Engineer at Oldsmobile during the development of the in-line 6, 8, and Viking V-8 engines. In fact, he and Gordon Bygraves of Lansing Pattern "worked out" the first integrally cast V-8 engine cylinder block; all previous V-type engines had been two-piece block castings bolted together.

Under Gilbert's leadership, design was initiated of a new 90-degree V-8 engine of 288 cu. in . displacement. This engine was called the SV-49. Immediately, Gilbert had John Coleman, Pete Mitchell, Marvin Katke, Frank Nethoway, and others of Production Engineering in consultation for the best possible product potential development.

In July 1946, Harold White, Motor Engineer, accepted a position with the Ford Motor Company engineering department. Gilbert Burrell was immediately appointed Motor Engineer. The Advanced design group was disbanded with the various men going back to their original groups.

SV-49 engine design and development accelerated and it appeared the first experimental engine would be ready to run in the fall of 1946. I spent three weeks at Product Studies #4 in late September and early October attempting to absorb as much engine knowledge as possible from men who had worked at Allison, Buick, Cadillac, and Chevrolet. The only major information I returned to Oldsmobile with was that Tony Wouters was leaving us on October 17 to go to Ford. The search was on for a replacement. A young man of about 30 years of age who had done some excellent work on the two-cycle Diesel at G. M. Research was recommended by Daryl Caris, Engine Research Head. He was interviewed and hired. His name - Elliot "Pete" Estes. Beginning his association with Oldsmobile Engineering in the latter part of November 1946, Pete immediately had an impact on our Motor Group.

Just about the time of Pete's arrival, the Motor Group gang gathered around the test stand in Elgin Neff's engineering assembly department. The first SV-49 was on the stand - coolant hoses were connected, battery cables connected, exhaust pipe connected - anticipation! Gilbert Burrell turned the ignition switch, the engine cranked over, it started. "The damn thing runs!" What an elated noisy bunch, a grand event in our lives, the birth had been successful. Four Sv-49 engines were build for laboratory studies and vehicle installation. It appeared we were on our way to entering a new dynamic era in Oldsmobile's automotive leadership.

Skinner and Wolfram requested approval and an appropriation from General Motors to produce our new baby. Disaster! Disappointment! Oldsmobile's request was rejected! Cadillac, builder of a 90-degree V-8 "L" head engine and beginning design of an overhead valve V-8, objected to any other division of G. M. building a 90-degree V-8. The objection stuck, at least temporarily.

Interest in our SV-49 cooled. However, we could not be defeated. Pete Estes and I began to look at the dynamics of other V-8 configurations. We studied an 8-cylinder 70-degree bank angle and one of a 60-degree angle with even firing. Concentrating on the 60 degree bank angle with even firing, we determined that the primary rocking couple could only be partially balanced with crankshaft counterweights and that a contra-rotating shaft with a counterweight at each end and rotating at crankshaft speed would also be required.

Together, Pete and I prepared a graph to show the imbalance and the counteracting requirements. Together we presented this to Wolfram who reacted emphatically against the need for an extra shaft with counterweights absorbing power and delivering no useful work of engine output.

Armed with this information, the next day Skinner and Wolfram made another trip to G. M. Central Office, this time to President C. E. Wilson. About midday, Burrell received a phone call from Wolfram, still in Wilson's office. Stop everything we were doing and begin working on a 90-degree V-8 engine immediately! The objections had been overcome. This was now March 1947.

Using our SV-49 experience, we immediately began the design of a 288 cu. in. 90-degree V-8 spark ignition engine was designated the 8-90 for engineering purposes. Production and processing engineers were called in immediately because machinery also had to be designed and built, plant layouts made to determine location and space requirements, suppliers were contracted - a hell of a lot to be accomplished in order to introduce the new "Kettering" engine in the 1949 model. But wait - "Who said you could name the engine Kettering? Don't you guys at Oldsmobile know that General Motors has a rule prohibiting the naming of any product after a living person?" Kettering was still active at this time. But we could name the plant the Kettering engine plant.

About this time, thermodynamic analysis and our SV-49 studies indicated that the engine should be somewhat larger. The displacement was increased from 288 cu. ci. to 303 cu. ci. -

http://www.autohistory.org/feature_8.html

[EPA2]

Originally Posted by Ttple

I say kill Buick and Saturn and bring back Olds.

Amen!

[EPA2]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Here is a great article on the Rocket V8.



http://www.autohistory.org/feature_8.html

Thanks for posting the info and your insights, you have a lot of good material there.

Good point about Cadillac trying to kill the Olds Rocket V8. The rivalry between divisions was so fierce back in the day, there was sometimes more competition between divisions than other auto manufacturers.

Thanks for posting the Rocket V8 article.

[EPA2]

Here's a look back at the big Olds for the early 1970s:

1970 Olds 98 and Delta 88 TV Commercials:

+ YouTube Video

1971 Delta 88 TV Comercials:

+ YouTube Video

1972 Olds 98 and Delta 88 TV Commericials:

+ YouTube Video

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by EPA2

Thanks for posting the info and your insights, you have a lot of good material there.

Good point about Cadillac trying to kill the Olds Rocket V8. The rivalry between divisions was so fierce back in the day, there was sometimes more competition between divisions than other auto manufacturers.

Thanks for posting the Rocket V8 article.

Hey, thank you for starting the thread and posting the lead link.

I don't want to sound negatively critical, its a very good start but the thing that bugs me is that we are collectively both losing and rewriting our automotive history - this should not be so.

Sometimes its just the little things.

As an example, that first gen FWD Olds '98 had a 140 or 125 ?? HP for the approx 16 / 17 months of MYR '85 production - which also most definitely had a decent initial sales surge ( doubled sales ) including going in some cases for over list. ( 150 hp showed up for model year '86 or '87 ( I can't remember this stuff accurately anymore ) - this was the start of when the 3.8 started to evolve fairly rapidly.)

Late add: Well, after a quick look around I guess it did go 125 MYR '85 then -140 - 150.

This was the first 6 pt FI for the Buick 3.8, and it also showed up for good effect in the Cutlass Ciera.

Drive ability was excellent in both applications ( the difference was truly startling in Ca. or HA emissions trim ) and if you tried to maximize fuel economy you could get a more than decent number out of the Cierra considering all the rest and the time period.

[wescoent]

My great uncle was a fierce Olds loyalist. He bought Delta 88's like clockwork every 3 or 4 years, in contrast to my grandfather, who was a fierce Buick loyalist.

In the early 80's, he ended up getting a Delta 88 with a Chevrolet V8, and stormed back to the dealer, demanding one with a "Rocket" V8. Thankfully, they apologized profusely, and got him the car he wanted.

He switched to the Aurora in 1995 or 1996, and traded his last one on a Lexus LS430 in 2004, because he was so angry at GM for dropping Olds.

---

One of my friends had a Cutlass Ciera in college. We absolutely hated it, but to its credit, it withstood quite a bit of abuse before falling apart completely.

---

It's my understanding that Olds' big sales boom in the early 80's was due to a dropping of prices in relation to Chevrolet... any truth to this?