Crazy idea: GM and Ostalgie - let's build a Wartburg!

[RedVee8]

Borgward isabella pic pinched off Google Images from DavyDutchy.

[Odin]

Germans dont want a wartburg especially one with polymer panels, a cheap car maybe but no wartburg, is wartburg even known outside of east germany? no even more pointless, just keep making astra b's they seem to be selling well enough there, btw I am from germany so I do know a bit of the background.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by RedVee8

The Wartburg you want to celebrate reminds me of the Peugeot that Columbo used to drive, or maybe a Borgward Isabella. Can't just put my finger on it, close?

Colombo drove a Peugeot 403 Cabriolet.

[GM-10]

I think that your general idea has merit.

I think that GM ought to take a small group and start an independent subsidary. Give them carteblanche to the parts bin and a budget. Let them design a proposal for a small niche brand. If the business proposal has a positive NPV and does not undermine another positive NPV they should do it.

Why not build a new brand. It does not necessarily have to be anywhere near the scale of Chevrolet, Opel or even SAAB. If you look at the production scale associated with Kappa cars...it does not look impossible. I think a car line that taps into the 'perceptual space' of such a huge market as the former Soviet Union and Bloc countries is a good idea.

Your idea does not deserve ridicule. Of course the ridicule may be evidence that it is infact a meritorious idea.

[Bravada]

Your idea does not deserve ridicule. Of course the ridicule may be evidence that it is infact a meritorious idea.

Thanks a lot

Germans dont want a wartburg especially one with polymer panels, a cheap car maybe but no wartburg, is wartburg even known outside of east germany? no even more pointless, just keep making astra b's they seem to be selling well enough there, btw I am from germany so I do know a bit of the background.

They don't want Trabbis either, do they

And Wartburgs are of course known across Eastern Europe. They were the cars of choice. And even to those to whom they weren't, you can market them in a whole new, inventive way.

You would guess nobody would want a Skoda, be it in Germany or in the UK, or even in the Czech Republic or Poland. But somehow, everybody does!

BTW, Pug 403 Cabrio:


Doesn't quite look like a Wartburg...

As concerns the Borgward - sure! For some reason, IFA (the East German industry conglomerate responsible for automobile production) had a penchant for copying the Borgward Group designs. For example, the first Trabant looked remarkably like Borgward's little Lloyd Alexander:


Lloyd Alexander


Trabant P50

I think a car line that taps into the 'perceptual space' of such a huge market as the former Soviet Union and Bloc countries is a good idea.

I don't think there is a market for such cars in the (former) Soviet Union. The Logan is the perfect car for the lower ranks of that market.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by GM-10

I think that your general idea has merit.

I think that GM ought to take a small group and start an independent subsidary. Give them carteblanche to the parts bin and a budget. Let them design a proposal for a small niche brand. If the business proposal has a positive NPV and does not undermine another positive NPV they should do it.

Why not build a new brand. It does not necessarily have to be anywhere near the scale of Chevrolet, Opel or even SAAB. If you look at the production scale associated with Kappa cars...it does not look impossible. I think a car line that taps into the 'perceptual space' of such a huge market as the former Soviet Union and Bloc countries is a good idea.

Your idea does not deserve ridicule. Of course the ridicule may be evidence that it is infact a meritorious idea.

Why does GM need yet another brand? The brand recognition of wartburg is tiny, ie 15 million people in east germany and most of the people in west germany don't think highly of it. If you must make a smallish car/cheap keep it as a chevy or an opel. GM does not need the overhead of yet another brand. Do you see Toyota making an elcheapo brand in europe? I think not.

[Bravada]

Toyota is not the market leader in Europe. Renault bought Dacia and makes cash hand over fist on those.

[RedVee8]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Thanks a lot



They don't want Trabbis either, do they

And Wartburgs are of course known across Eastern Europe. They were the cars of choice. And even to those to whom they weren't, you can market them in a whole new, inventive way.

You would guess nobody would want a Skoda, be it in Germany or in the UK, or even in the Czech Republic or Poland. But somehow, everybody does!

BTW, Pug 403 Cabrio:


Doesn't quite look like a Wartburg...

As concerns the Borgward - sure! For some reason, IFA (the East German industry conglomerate responsible for automobile production) had a penchant for copying the Borgward Group designs. For example, the first Trabant looked remarkably like Borgward's little Lloyd Alexander:


Lloyd Alexander


Trabant P50



I don't think there is a market for such cars in the (former) Soviet Union. The Logan is the perfect car for the lower ranks of that market.

And of course there is an Aussie / Holden connection.

Sir Lawrence Hartnett after leaving GM tried to start an Aussie small car enterprise based on a Lloyd. He called the enterprise Lloyd Hartnett. I think Lloyd may have encountered financial difficulties which scuppered this deal.

I think that before the Lloyd he may have tried his own design, which from memory resembled a recumbent outdoor dunny. Wonder why it didn't take off?

No pics sorry, anyone? nota?


Edit - s'pose I should explain that Sir Lawrence was an ex Managing Director of GM-H in the years preceding the Holden car. He is known as the "Father of the Holden", whether that is a self bestowed honour I'm not too sure. Anyway he was an Englishman, and was replaced a year or so out from the introduction of the 48-215 (the first Holden) by the GM Overseas division (New York?) for the crime of being "too Australian", well thats what Hartnett said anyway.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Toyota is not the market leader in Europe. Renault bought Dacia and makes cash hand over fist on those.

And how many brands does Renault have in Europe apart from itself and Dacia? Nissan doesn't really count.

How many does GM have in europe? opel, vauxhall, cadillac and chevrolet? Whats the point of adding yet another brand. By the way I did not say Toyota was the number one carmaker in europe, my point is they have the lexus brand and themselves. They aren't doing bad. So what is the point of having yet another brand and it's overheads just to sell a "bargain car?" if you must, sell it under an existing brand.

[Bravada]

Opel and Vauxhall are interchangeable. And Nissan DOES count, it is a major brand, larger than Chevrolet atm. Volkswagen, which is the market leader, has Skoda.

The whole concept is very different from regular cars, and wouldn't fit under any of the existing brands. Already, the Astra Classic, while bringing money to the kitty, doesn't really do much for Opel's brand positioning - it is only that the Astra B was a really competent and well-engineered car which allows Opel to get away with that.

I do not think that more brands are evil. Actually, if you'd look at it, many players are ADDING brands - Renault is about to launch Infiniti, VW brought back Bugatti, revived Skoda and Seat and started developing Bentley. BMW added MINI (in a similar fashion, to launch a car that doesn't fit into the concept of any of the brands), Mercedes launched Smart, Chrysler brought Dodge to Europe again.

More brands are more opportuinties to make targeted, focused and clear value propositions, to say so. What is more dangerous is stretching brands, which is one of Toyota's limitations in Europe (which is why they had to pull from the executive car or sports car markets).

[Odin]

Fine if you want to count Nissan do that. What is the point of having yet another budget brand when Chevrolet europe seems to be taking that role? With most of their brands being in the lower price range. Tell me why your "wartburg" should not be a chevrolet? Since it is a budget brand and you are trying to sell a budget car. Like I said before. Wartburg is virtually unknown outside of Germany and some of it's press isn't exactly fond memories.

[paul8488]

I agree... if you can have 10 brands that all have their own market focus and don't step on each others toes, then 10 brands makes sense! I suspect the magic number is around 3 or 4, if they're well defined and don't stray from their mission statements.

Chevrolet in Europe is certainly value-oriented... but I think they want to be very careful to be viewed as a smart buy, not simply a cheap buy. A bottom-feeder Logan-like car could sully the Chevrolet name before it really gets entrenched.

Where are the dies for the 'Geo' logos? They have to be collecing dust somewhere...

[Bravada]

Chevroler Europe is currently selling middle-of-the-road background-melting standard inexpensive cars. They do appeal to people seeking "standard" transportation, and either Lacetti or Astra Classic cover that market very well. But there are also customers who want a bit more from their purchase, some "lifestyle value".

Being different, be it in a "good" or "bad" way, adds "lifestyle value", so the perverse idea of owning a Wartburg, coupled with wacky retro styling AND actually modern, reliable technology might be a hit there. That is why people want a Beetle!

As concerns Geo, Chevrolet IS Geo now, both in the US (Aveo) and other markets. Here, I don't see any need to revive the brand - not much of a value proposition for anybody. And, if anything, Chevrolet's upmarket amibitions need to be curbed.

[Odin]

So you've got a "wartburg brand" with it's ensuing startup costs and promotional costs, and 1 car model to sell? now what? 1 model does not a brand make. To me it seems it can either get stuck in the wacky model wacky styling rutt sell somewhat well for a few years and then die down. Or it will morph into chevrolet mark 2 thereby eating into chevy sales. One of the reasons mini works for bmw, is they don't really have a brand competing with it apart from the 1 series.

[Bravada]

1 model does not a brand make.

One of the reasons mini works for bmw, is they don't really have a brand competing with it apart from the 1 series.

Wartburg is intended for people who wouldn't buy a GM DAT Chevrolet (but rather e.g. a 40-year-old Kombi with a turbo engine fitted), and conversely, Chevrolet buyers would probably not be interested in Wartburgs. GM has quite solid "mainstream" offerings, but they hardly cater for the "funny car" market, which is a place to expand...