Small displacement diesel pickups in 2009?

[SullyND]

Man, that's a looker.

[44 mpg by 2010]

Not everyone will like it .... BUT some will buy ... IF ... THE PRICE IS RIGHT!

See if you can find an image of the Scorpio ....

[balthazar]

andretti : >>"It takes the vision of the imports to recognize a market potential (small diesel pickups)."<<

'Vision of the imports', eh? So the question that rises to the surface is- where is toyota's small diesel pickup ?? Honda's ?? Nissan's ?? Subaru's ?? Where's the "import vision" from these established players ?
It's toyota & nissan that stand to bear the brunt of any supposed mahindra marketshare grab, since they are the sales & profit leaders of the segment, not GM.

RE the design- we've come some distance in styling/design in the last 10 years.... a retro-esque generic throwback to 1977 is NOT going to pack them into the half-handful of mahindra dealerships.

[CUtiger08]

Originally Posted by balthazar

andretti :
It's toyota & nissan that stand to bear the brunt of any supposed mahindra marketshare grab, since they are the sales & profit leaders of the segment, not GM.

I do agree that none of the established players, regardless of "import" or "domestic" has stepped up with a small diesel in the US (though I think all of them offer one in Asia/Australia/etc...), but I'm not so sure about your sales effect prediction.

GM and Ford sell alot of cheap small trucks that are actually used for work while Toyota and Nissan are more in the "family SUV but with a bed" market, selling more crew cabs and well equipped models. I hardly ever see 2-door Tacomas, I'm pretty sure Nissan doesn't even make a regular cab Frontier, and I bet the small engine sales to large engine sales ratio is notably smaller for Nissan and Toyota than GM and Ford (at least based on what I see here in South Carolina).

And ignoring brand loyaties and styling, a cheap little pickup like this is more likely to win over someone who buys a 4-cyl single cab Ranger or Colorado that hauls stuff for a farmer or plumber than a V-6 crew cab Tacoma or Frontier to drive the family to dinner on Friday night and the lake with Jet Skis on Saturday.

However, most GM/Ford buyers are more brand loyal, especially in trucks, and anyone who buys a Tacoma has no qualms with an ugly truck, so the end result will likely that any effect this truck has will be spread out pretty equally over all of the major players.

[tblack21]

That 4.5L diesel in a half ton Sierra/Silverado would sell like hotcakes. I work at a dealership and that is the number one complaint about our new trucks.

Here's an idea: Why doesn't GM ask their dealers what people are looking for? Toyota did it, worked okay for them.

I really wonder who is making the decisions in this company.

[sonjaab]

YAWN!!!!!!!!!!

Here we go with the old " Why don't GM (or other Detroit3 automaker) have diesels in their vehicle lineups cuz the "superior" imports do" AGAIN!

In case some of you folks have been asleep and have forgot that GM and others had many diesels in the 80s that NOBODY bought!

Remember:
Forgetting the awful GM fullsizers with the 350 diesel what about these?

80s Chevette/t-100s /Chevy s-10s with the 4 cyl. Isuzu DIESEL?
80s Olds Cutlass and other GM intermediates with the 6 cyl. DIESEL?

Ford had several diesel models also:
80s Lincoln Marks with the BMW DIESEL and stick shifts too!
80s Courier and Ranger pickups had DIESELS

Mopar had a few limited DIESEL models also but can't recall which!

SO WHY isn't Detroit pushing MORE Diesels NOW?

NOBODY BUYS THEM! They didn't buy them then so why would they sell NOW?

Except for large pickup trucks and a few zealots who buy the VW diesels there are FEW people who put their money where their mouth is !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[F14CRAZY]

Originally Posted by sonjaab

YAWN!!!!!!!!!!

Here we go with the old " Why don't GM (or other Detroit3 automaker) have diesels in their vehicle lineups cuz the "superior" imports do" AGAIN!

In case some of you folks have been asleep and have forgot that GM and others had many diesels in the 80s that NOBODY bought!

Remember:
Forgetting the awful GM fullsizers with the 350 diesel what about these?

80s Chevette/t-100s /Chevy s-10s with the 4 cyl. Isuzu DIESEL?
80s Olds Cutlass and other GM intermediates with the 6 cyl. DIESEL?

Ford had several diesel models also:
80s Lincoln Marks with the BMW DIESEL and stick shifts too!
80s Courier and Ranger pickups had DIESELS

Mopar had a few limited DIESEL models also but can't recall which!

SO WHY isn't Detroit pushing MORE Diesels NOW?

NOBODY BUYS THEM! They didn't buy them then so why would they sell NOW?

Except for large pickup trucks and a few zealots who buy the VW diesels there are FEW people who put their money where their mouth is !!!!!!!!!!!!!

it's one thing to sell a product that sucks, but when you abandon the idea altogether instead of trying to improve it, you just failed.

[doh]

Originally Posted by 44 mpg by 2010

Well GM, you have had your chances for a number of years now ...

It seems that one of those "foreign" badges is going to have a 2.2 liter clean common rail diesel in the US BEFORE ... 2010 !

The "mid-size trucks and SUVs will offer a blend of ruggedness, performance and affordability highlighted by a clean-burning diesel engine built with top-of-the-industry green technology from Bosch."

"The diesel-only truck will use a slightly modified version of Mahindra's "mHawk"' 2.2-liter inline four cylinder diesel engine. It's expected to have fuel economy ratings as high as 30 mpg and 1.3-ton hauling capability. Final U.S. pricing for the pickup is expected in September."

I forgot to mention that the pickup will be available as both a 2/4 door configurations with 4WD/2WD options and a 6 speed A/T.

Oh, and there is an SUV in there somewhere ... did not see a schedule though.

Well, GM (Ford or NEW Chrysler) how and when will you respond??? Ford had the chance with the Tourneo/Transist/Connect ... but the US got a gasoline engine with 33% lower mpg.

Unless GM is far ahead of where I think they are ... their only salvation is probably a "24 month waiver of import restrictions for EU vehicles with fuel economies 52 mpg(Imperial) [approximately 44 mpg(US)] combined cycle and greater" from President Obama/Congress ... PLUS help from Opel.

Otherwise, it looks like Detroit just gave away another market segment, a rather large (and previously profittable) one at that.

It is VERY SAD to see ALL of the missed opportunities ...

BTW, this will even put pressure on Honda, Hyundai/Kia, Mazda, Nissan, Saab, Toyota, and Volvo.

Sorry GM, Ford, and Chrysler, that is the nature of a competitive market place. Particularly ... when crude oil and fuel prices increase more than 50% in less than 6 months for the second time in less than 2 years.

At least that is the way I see it ...

S10/S15 and the Ranger as well as say an Escort could be had with a small displacement Diesel back in the 80's. So Mahindra is not the first by umm a couple of decades. Or is that why you added "Common Rail?"

I am waiting for the Global Ranger. 4 doors with a 4 banger diesel, sign me up!

[AMERICA 123]

We got one small chance on all this.

One of the American Big Three will, in the process of tryin' to both do something for PU sales in general while getting a leg up on the other two will go ahead and pull the trigger.

Ford really should go first but regardless of who does they'll get the most from it.

[CUtiger08]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

We got one small chance on all this.

One of the American Big Three will, in the process of tryin' to both do something for PU sales in general while getting a leg up on the other two will go ahead and pull the trigger.

Ford really should go first but regardless of who does they'll get the most from it.

If you're referring to small pickups... it's not so much a leg up on the other two as a fighting chance against Toyota. The Detroit 3 and partners (Mazda) currently hold around 44% of the small/midsized truck market... and the Tacoma all by itself holds 40%, with the Frontier and it's Suzuki twin at around 11% (all numbers August YTD).

Obviously this market's results are affected in a big way by the weakness of Japan in big trucks and Detroit's strength in the same... but still, the small ones make up about 20% of pickup sales in the US and I doubt that'll go down with the smaller/greener trends we've go going. GM and/or Ford could definately get back into the fray with a good little diesel truck... especially since they already have them overseas... though probably not emissions-ready for the US. A truly global Ranger or Colorado, with a great diesel engine option, is a short to mid-term must IMO.

Actually, if they get the right sized diesel going, they could put it in both big and small trucks. The 2.9L V-6 that GM showed off a while back (that's since been shelved for the time being IIRC) had around 250hp and 400lb-ft. That compares pretty well with GM's 5.3L overall, so it could make a good "green with grunt" engine for 1/2 ton models while being an excellent range topping engine for a GMT-355 sized model.

[ejf2461]

Originally Posted by 44 mpg by 2010

What is your concern?

If Ford and the NewDet2 have adequately addressed the market ... there will be NO small displacement diesel pickup or SUV sold by Mahindra!

On the other hand, if Mahindra sales are large it would be clear that Det3 has ignored an existing demand in either the "fuel frugality", Clean small displacement diesel, small pickup/SUV, or feature/fuction segments, maybe all.

Are you suggesting a "fear" that Ford and the NewDet2 might have "missed the boat" ... again?

Assuming they have "missed the boat" ... how could they, the Det3, react quickly to deliver product addressing these previously "ignored" market segments?

Ford and the NewDet2 could ask the Feds/President to TEMPORARILY (24 months) waive import restrictions and tariffs on EU certified vehicles that achieve greater than 51 mpg(Imperial) combined cycle. At least that would give Detroit a chance to compete with their EXISTING EU product temporarily!

Then, DURING the 24 month waiver, the Det3 could figure out how to build US emission/safety compliant machines IN the US.

Just an idea ...

Ignored Market is Right!

Most people who purchase Diesel powered trucks do so because they NEED them, not want them. If you pull anything of significant weight and are responsible for filling its gas tank, then you prefer a Diesel.

Fact! There is a reason why ALL semis have Diesel engines. Their more fuel efficent, longer lasting and more reliable than Gasonline. Another fact is Gasoline engines havent got much more fuel efficent over the last 100 yrs. Added gears in transmission, better aerodynamics, Fuel Injection, Displacement on Demand has only marginally improved fuel economy. Oil Companies know this and thats why they lean on the Government so hard to make it nearly impossible for automakers to produce a Diesel. If you dont believe me check the records at VW and Mercedes when they produced a Diesel in the US market, VW had to quit selling its V10 diesel in its SUV until it could pass the new stricter laws and Mercedes has to delay the Blutec launch until it did the same. The big 3 want to give the customers what they want and what they will buy but unfortunatly Big Oil doesnt make it easy. Big Oil knows that a huge influx of fuel efficent diesels to the US market would really hurt fuel demand and lower prices. Big Oil has become accustom to triple digit profit margins and spreads that power and money to all politicans who will sell their influence.

I need a large SUV to haul family and trailers/boats. GM and Ford both quit making diesel powered large SUV's. I would of bought a fleet of Hummer H2's if GM would of put the Duramax in them.The big 3 are the only players in the Police/Taxi fleet game and none of the big 3 sell a diesel in this market. Guess what stupidity cost? A freaking start up company (Carbon Motors) goes to a little town in Indiana and builds a Specialty Police Vehicle with guess what a turbo diesel that gets over 35mpg and can idle for hours like cops cars do and last over 250k miles and is faster (155mph)than any cop car produced in by the big 3 even the Hemi Charger. Law enforcement sales alone are over 60k cars a year and the taxi market is over 100k cars a year. Carbon Motors will gladly take this from the Big 3 and show the Big 3 how they used to do business! Here in the US and with US workers! What do I drive? A Mercedes 300 with a Blutec Diesel that gets a true 37mpg. Show me another large sedan in the US that even offers a diesel or true 37mpg. I have owned a Hybrid Tahoe and got nowhere near 20mpg like it said on the window sticker, same goes for my wife's Mini Cooper it said 37mpg and it averaged 24mpg. I pull with a 2006 Hummer H1 Alpha, its big, hard to park, but tough as nails and gets 18mpg. I wish the GM would put a Diesel in every vehicle they produce. I grew up in a GM family and have loyalty towards GM, but currently my fleet is VW Jetta's, Tourgage's, Mercedes 300's, ML's, GL's and RL's all Diesels and the worst gets 24mpg. When sells at the Big 3 are as bad as they are they all need to look at markets like the overlooked market that I reside in.

[solman98]

Originally Posted by 44 mpg by 2010

Not everyone will like it .... BUT some will buy ... IF ... THE PRICE IS RIGHT!

See if you can find an image of the Scorpio ....

http://www.mahindrascorpio.com/scorp...technology.asp

[skyrydr2]

I "was" a dedicated GM guy, but after seeing the new trucks come though with an optional rear inner fender cover ..... come on.... I've been an employee of GM for 14 years working on these rigs, and will say they are not worth the $ ..
As for not producing a small diesel in the US. when you can get them everywhere else in the world is beyond words.... Now that they are Goverment Motors in stead of General Motors(not really ) but you get the point.
I hate to buy anything from another country but they are making it very difficult.
As for the big oil companies I will burn Bio fuel at all cost before lining their pockets.
So bring on the small diesel GM and redeem your self before Ford beats you too it!

[44 mpg by 2010]

Originally Posted by skyrydr2

As for not producing a small diesel in the US. when you can get them everywhere else in the world is beyond words.... Now that they are Goverment Motors in stead of General Motors(not really ) but you get the point.
I hate to buy anything from another country but they are making it very difficult.
As for the big oil companies I will burn Bio fuel at all cost before lining their pockets.
So bring on the small diesel GM and redeem your self before Ford beats you too it!

I second the motion!

ejf2461 suggested the idea of a 24 month waiver was ignoring the market.

Quite the opposite.

Under the waive (and after) there should be NO restriction of YOUR choice to have a "big guzzler" ... only adding the opportunity for those that need/want lighter diesel vehicles ... to have a choice also.

The 44 mpg(US) combined cycle 2 ton diesel Ford Mondeo can tow 2 tons (with surge brakes on the trailer).