Off Track: Buick And Alpha

[Z284ever]

This stuff is interesting to talk about and all. But the bottom line with me here, is that I'm not sure that the folks at the very top of GM management have either the product savvy nor the ability to delegate to those who do, to do this thing properly.

Personally, I'd like more clarification on just why a Buick Alpha decision hinges so greatly on The Code 130R. Why? Does Buick want to sell a regrilled Code in China? Is that why? Does GM want to sell a rebadged/regrilled Code as an Opel in Europe. That's all fine and dandy, as long as someone has a cogent vision. Or is it because GM is trying to justify enough product to outfit a second Alpha plant.

Whatever, we just don't know.

[cdp326]

Agreed. But unless Alpha can stretch to a large-car size (my understanding is it might stretch to G8-ish size, but that seems to be the outer limits), it doesn't really hit the right product hole that Buick has. I do totally agree that a large 300C-type sedan would be perfect for Buick, slotted above (or as a replacement for) the LaCrosse. Offer the GenV V8 and/or a turbo V6 with a lot of torque, eight-speed automatic, quiet tuning and a Buick appropriate interior. I think for the vast majority of near-luxury car buyers (well, at least in North America) that's probably a more attractive proposition than the current CTS.

But, an ATS-sized sports sedan makes less sense to me as a Buick. Maybe as a four-door coupe. I even sort-of buy the notion that it could replace the Regal -- but if I could get an Alpha Regal sports sedan for less than an ATS ... then what't the ATS for?

I tend to think it would be midsized. And sure, then a larger Buick Alpha will be the same price or less than a smaller ATS, and definitely cheaper compared to Alpha CTS. But, I think GM would be able to differentiate them sufficiently; GN is only a piece of the rumored puzzle. The only difference between a Buick Alpha compared to other current shared-platform Cadillacs and Chevrolets with Buicks in between, is that the current ones are FWD-based platforms. It would be nice if GM can bring a more mainstream RWD car (as opposed to a small sport-lux sedan), no matter what the badge on it is.

If we (and this is a general question, not directed at anyone) have to worry this much about differentiating an Alpha-based Buick from the Chevrolet and Cadillac counterparts, wouldn't that concern extend to the rest of Buick's lineup as well, and thus raise the question about how well they're doing with making Buick both distinct and sustainable?

[Monaro]

Forgetting handling and possibly a degree of refinement. RWD just LOOKS better, it has better proportions and I think that's a major drawcard to the average person who may not care about performance. Regardless of the details, FWD cars often have a really silly amount of front over hang and kinda look like the front wheels have gone over some sot of bollard and pushed back.

People love a lot of BMW designs, the details (lights, panel sculpting, glasshouses) have changed over the years but what remains are the proportions- that un-measurable quality (to the average person) of solidity and sexiness that sets it apart from 90% of other makes. There are also the people who might also admire other RWD car designs romantically in the back of their mind but don't want to be associated with Camaro's, Charger's, Mustangs and vettes or even "SS". I write of of this in relation to looks alone, not performance.

[blowngtp]

Regal as I've stated many times needs to be out of the US lineup; Especially now that since the Verano is available. I could only see the Regal being around if it were powered by a V6 at GM highest ouput available for a AWD drive. A turbo 4 doesn't cut it.

I agree with others that GM has to step its game up where the Regal is concern if its to be retained in the lineup. Its price should be as reasonable as possible to initially build customer base. Again, NO 4 cylinder version at all. This should be a car where Buick gets a chance to have fun yet be different from the ATS and Camaro. The Camaro, ATS, and AWD Regal (yes AWD) should share the same V6 with the buick priced much closer to Camaro V6. It should also be a Coupe. Don't tell me this couldn't be done. It should also be the first to get any turbo 6 that GM develops for a car. This is how you compete with the next level yet set yourself apart.

[Carguy]

I disagree with the OP.

The Regal is the soft spot in the Buick line. It's limited to 270hp and 295lb-ft because GM doesn't have a FWD-based transmission to give it more unless they add AWD. AWD will make the car far more expensive, even heavier than its current porcine self, and hurt (already mediocre) fuel economy without giving much benefit to handling. Same story with the LFX. And at that point, it'd be knocking on the "softened styling for Europe" ATS's door. The transmissions in the GS aren't GM units to begin with. And the manual bogs down off the line, so the GS isn't even the fastest Buick on offer. The Verano Turbo is. The Regal eAssist is tied with the bigger LaCrosse for best fuel economy in the Buick line, as well, so there isn't much advantage with the Regal on that front, either. Sure, the GS's handling is great, but it would be better without all the expensive technical wizardry that results in more compromises if it were RWD.

The Regal is just too much of a compromise car in a dying segment (FWD premium midsize performance sedans). It's a good car, itself, but in its current setup, it does get lost between the very likeable Verano and the luscious-looking LaCrosse. It's clear that GM is still trying to find an audience for this car, and it's not working too well. 12% of Regal sales going to the GS is good, but only if volume overall is good. And Regal volume is pretty dismal at this point.

I don't really think Opel benefits much from the Regal. They can't when it comes to volume because the car is produced in Canada now, and shares only one engine with the Insignia. Suppliers are different, tooling is different, and the car is built in a different plant than its US platform mate, the Chevy Malibu, so economies of scale are reduced, since two sets of tooling for the different locations are necessary. Buick and Opel should only team up where the partnership works. The Verano/Astra works. The Encore/Mokka might. The Regal/Insignia doesn't (except in China, which is a whole different banana and complicated since Opel is setting up shop there, too).

A RWD Regal replacement on Alpha wouldn't hurt the ATS if the car were, say, 190" long or so. If it were between the ATS and Alpha+ CTS in size, it'd slot in between the Verano and LaCrosse, but not be just another FWD premium mainstreamer. The performance potential would be greater, and it could mop up customers that don't want an ATS due to its compact size, but don't want to stretch to where the new CTS will be priced. The LaCrosse needs to get a little bigger next time around (e.g., trunk space), anyway, and would be a much different animal, so it'd be further out of the way from a RWD Regal.

Styling and marketing are the biggest factors for a car like an Alpha+ Regal (see: Charger vs. 300). It can work if it ISN'T badge-engineered. Someone earlier brought up VW, and I think they have a point. Product overlap isn't so much a problem as lack of product differentiation. A RWD Regal could be styled much better than the current car and be different enough from the cars above it and below it in the line to carve out its own respectable niche.

As for Opel's issues, they wouldn't need to build a new plant at all, just add a line to one of their current underused plants across Europe. Plus, if Opel hopes to get out of Chevrolet's way, they'll need a vehicle to sort of seal the deal that their upscale push is for real. An Alpha+ car would certainly help more in Europe than a rebadged FWD LaCrosse would.

In all, I think a RWD Regal would be a great idea, a great way to mix things up in the Buick line. Lots of power for a GNX/GN/T-Type redux could be added easily. AWD could be added easily, since the platform is lighter in weight. And an Alpha-based CUV to slot in the massive gap between the Encore and Enclave would be good, too. Alpha's body style flexibility would mean costs could be spread out over more units, as well.

Remember that Epsilon II's costs are being defrayed over two versions of the platform (a platform on which a Buick already rides), much more volume, and the Malibu is already a global player that's saved the company from having to design an Epica, too. If the Insignia can't make a business case for itself in Europe/China/Australia without 20,000 additional units in the US, then maybe it is time to put Opel down.

Think of an Alpha Regal as a direct replacement for the first-generation CTS. Then it begins to make more sense.

((AMEN)) to that!!!

[Carguy]

Buick has a long and storied history of performance!! And offering the proposed future Alpha based Regal in the middle of the Buick sedan lineup would be a bold and intriguing move on their part!

[Ammo]

What will fix the Regal?

Doesn't HAVE to be RWD but Alpha appears to be the only platform capable of this:

AWD option, LED accent lighting (Buick needs the Audi treatment), more power and better fuel economy to be competitive in th segment the Regal is trying to compete in.

[CaddyLac10]

For once GM is thinking outside the box in an effort to differentiate Buick from Chevy and there's a problem with it?

I have an idea...

Let's continue with the "Grandpa's sedan" tagline.

Let's not offer anything remotely exciting at Buick.

Let's not attract younger buyers that will be the future of Buick over the next 30 years.

Let's make Buick nothing more than a upscale Chevy clone.

Let's not diversify Buick's portfolio one bit because having sport and luxury at the same time is illegal.

Chevy, Buick and Cadillac are separate brands and they should be treated as such. All three brands do not necessarily target the same customer.

Maybe GM could learn a thing or two from Hyundai, who has found a way to target every hot segment across multiple price points in the exact same markets that Buick should be in.

Hyundai has a 60K RWD V8 flagship sedan, a 429 hp RWD V8 sports sedan, a RWD coupe starting at 24K, 3 crossovers, a fantastic new Azera, a compact with 3 body styles, and more. Meanwhile, we're debating if Buick should have ONE RWD sedan. Maybe GM should just move instead of pondering while the competition flies by them. At some point things simply become of matter of over analyzing.

Buick has a chance to improve their brand with an Alpha line. No one is saying for Buick not to focus on things that have made them successful in the past, but times have changed. Buick can diversify their portfolio while still being Buick.

The competition is fierce and the market expects well appointed, well designed, fuel efficient, and fun vehicles at the same time and modern engineering allows it. So, why we would expect a juggernaut like GM,who can build a vehicle like the ATS that took down the king in the segment for the last three decades,to strive for the same old mediocrity is beyond me.

The bottom line is that Buick needs to move upmarket even more to properly position themselves for success. Try something new GM.

[jadis]

One word: Haldex. Haldex, as seen on the OPC/VXR is a sophisticated system. It also makes the Insignia OPC/VXR weigh more than 4,000lbs and get terrible fuel economy. Adapting it to the Regal GS 2.0T I4's unique engine/transmission package vs. the OPC's 2.8T V6 would call for a major re-engineering.

The LaCrosse and XTS both have optional AWD, but their systems are far less sophisticated and not performance-oriented. And in the LaCrosse, the AWD option adds $2,165 to the tab. Would a 4,000lb AWD Regal GS with the 2.0T really sell any better above $40k? People are already saying it costs too much given the competition and the compromises.

GM can design and/or source an all-new, unique to the GS AWD system, I guess. But there goes the economies of scale, for what 3,000 units a year, tops? To line up with a transmission that's outsourced?

The Mercedes is also RWD. So instead of having to redirect the power from a transverse transaxle ninety degrees to the back wheels, punch a special tunnel through the floor to add a driveline, and redo the suspension, backseat/trunk package for AWD, a transfer case to the front wheels is most of what's needed in a RWD car. It's also worth noting that famous AWD players like Audi and Subaru mount their engines longitudinally for the most part.

AWD adds more weight to a FWD car than a RWD one. So there are realistic problems to overcome here.

I guess that's why we will keep buying foreign cars b/c it is just "too complex, costly and confusing" for the Americans to handle. I understand your reply and thank you for it, but it does not lessen my frustration with GM for their apparent inability to engineer a dynamic vehicle. If anything your reply just cements the fact that GM is too confused to either just bring a V6 for the AWD in the Regal or to turn the I4 90 degrees.

I would have guessed the I4 is considerably less in weight than the TV6 in Opel OPC, so the minor drop in performance over the V6 should be negligible, not to mention that I4 is easily tunable to over 300hp. I just see lost opportunity and a whole boat-load of excuses.

[tajmioso]

What will fix the Regal?

Doesn't HAVE to be RWD but Alpha appears to be the only platform capable of this:

AWD option, LED accent lighting (Buick needs the Audi treatment), more power and better fuel economy to be competitive in th segment the Regal is trying to compete in.

This is absolutely FALSE. The car the Regal is literally rebadge from has an AWD option with 325HP and 321 lbs of torque, from an old Turbo V6 no less.

The Regal, an absolutely excellent car, sales started to climb until this the Verano happened. Sporting a more modern, familiar exterior and a much more upscale interior. Once the Verano showed up on lots and people, namely women, started looking at the interiors and looks of the two cars, not to mention the price difference where you were getting more for less, we see that sales started to fall off on the older vehicle. In truth GM should have one division that copies Audi in it's "all our vehicles look the same, but just different sizes" philosophy.

I know its objective but really, which one looks more upscale, more modern, and even more "sporty?"

[iluvcamaros]

Overall RWD makes a lot of sense for both Opel and Buick. Opel's higher end cars historically were RWD (Omega and Senator). Buick is having a hard time making room for the current FWD Regal.

Alpha would step up the performance and distinguish it from the Verano/LaCrosse. If this is truly a "new GM" then it shouldn't be a tough decision. Give Buick/Opel what is best for them. Don't hold back because it might "hurt" Chevrolet or Cadillac.

[Ammo]

This is absolutely FALSE. The car the Regal is literally rebadge from has an AWD option with 325HP and 321 lbs of torque, from an old Turbo V6 no less.

I forgot to add "oh and lose 150-200 lbs" in my previous post. I was in a rush when I wrote it. I know that Opel's AWD solution adds even more weight, hurting the fuel economy further. The fact that the Regal is such a porker right now makes it a problem to add AWD.

Honestly, I think the Regal looks better than the Verano when the Regal has the HIDs. I'm not the world's biggest fan of the Verano's exterior. It looks like an old person car to me.

I think all Buicks need the Audi treatment (LEDs), personally.

[tajmioso]

I forgot to add "oh and lose 150-200 lbs" in my previous post. I was in a rush when I wrote it. I know that Opel's AWD solution adds even more weight, hurting the fuel economy further. The fact that the Regal is such a porker right now makes it a problem to add AWD.

Honestly, I think the Regal looks better than the Verano when the Regal has the HIDs. I'm not the world's biggest fan of the Verano's exterior. It looks like an old person car to me.

I think all Buicks need the Audi treatment (LEDs), personally.

No worries. I just see the Regal as sort of an evolution of what the G6 and Aura were going towards. Ironically the Aura (Saturn) was supposed to get the Insignia. The Verano looks like a baby Lacrosse.

[BBDOS CV8]

GM should have left Regal production to Opel - how much has it cost to open a second US line? The US could have been fed by Opel which would have produced a directly-improved bottom line to both companies, in view of the low sales number involved. It would have also allowed Opel to offer some of the improved features like the AFL headlamps. These could have positioned the Regal as the Euro-styled Buick for those who might blanch at the Lacrosse as 'too-US'. I have the opinion the Regal needs to be all-fours but better (lighter) and AWD as an option. Lacrosee as all-V6. Verano should not have the same 2.0T as the Regal - the 1.6T yes.

Alpha is the wrong platform for Buick IMO, except maybe a sporty coupe/converible like a Merc C which would probably have to be prohibitively-expensive to sell (and that is what ATS is) - would have been far better off with a reskinned Caprice from Holden as a range-topper, built in Oshawa on the Camaro line. With volume from that, AWD engineering could have been completed (it wouldn't be that different to the previous V-Car setup) which would have made it more than equal to anything DC puts out - and larger and more comfortable, not to mention stately. This would align Buick with what happens in China and potentially give them a small-volume export if Buick ever migrates overseas.

But GM it appears wasn't to blame, dealers were - who told GM they didn't want it. Alpha does appear to potentially out-German the Germans in 3- and maybe 5-series size, but in doing so it is somewhat limited in scope. It shares the Epi II problem of narrowness in fullsize and a maximum length on the short side of 200" which means Lacrosse-sized with normal proportions or an Impala/XTS with an enormous rear overhang and 'sucked-in' wheels.

Let Cadillac go after the 'premium' RWD German and pretenders to their throne like Jaguar, Lexus, Porsche, Aston et al. Buick should be aimed at Audi, Volvo and the 'premium FWD/AWD' segment.

[blowngtp]

What will fix the Regal?

Doesn't HAVE to be RWD but Alpha appears to be the only platform capable of this:

AWD option, LED accent lighting (Buick needs the Audi treatment), more power and better fuel economy to be competitive in th segment the Regal is trying to compete in.

Sounds alooks like what many here are saying

Regal as I've stated many times needs to be out of the US lineup; Especially now that since the Verano is available. I could only see the Regal being around if it were powered by a V6 at GM highest ouput available for a AWD drive. A turbo 4 doesn't cut it.

I agree with others that GM has to step its game up where the Regal is concern if its to be retained in the lineup. Its price should be as reasonable as possible to initially build customer base. Again, NO 4 cylinder version at all. This should be a car where Buick gets a chance to have fun yet be different from the ATS and Camaro. The Camaro, ATS, and AWD Regal (yes AWD) should share the same V6 with the buick priced much closer to Camaro V6. It should also be a Coupe. Don't tell me this couldn't be done. It should also be the first to get any turbo 6 that GM develops for a car. This is how you compete with the next level yet set yourself apart.

THe LED's are nice Buick would need to do something different with them. I agree with the AWD plus what I said earlier.