GMI Exclusive: SRX, Equinox To Get 3.0L HF V6

[Exploder]

I don't mind Cadillac using the LS series engines as V8s. They're used in the CTS-V, and an OHV is also used in the Escalade, yet I do not feel they are in any way more low-class or inferior to imports at all, at least when the engine is concerned.

If the engine is really really good, it shouldn't matter at all!

Probably the best post here.

[crazyjkz]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

Saturn, Chevy and Pontiac models do not need the 3.6L V6 and GM should have focused more on getting the 2.3L DI engine to the Epsilon along with items like rear seat arm rests.

Are you joking? Please explain to me how the Aura, G6, and Malibu could possibly compete with the premium 3.xL OHC 24-valve V6-equipped Altima/Camry/Accord/Mazda 6/Sebring/etc without a premium OHC 24-valve V6 option in the 3.2L-3.8L range? And if you say that GM's outdated and unrefined 3500/3900 HV pushrod V6s would be able to compete with the Nissan VQ35, Toyota's 3.5L, Ford/Mazda 3.5L & 3.7L Duratec, and the Honda J35 V6 then you are just kidding yourself because even GM knows that's not happening.

GM tried that for years and years by putting their outclassed OHV V6s up against the import's premium 3.xL OHC 24-valve V6s and they never stood a chance on any front with maybe the exception of fuel economy, and even the fuel economy gap has now been closed between the OHV and OHC V6s thanks to newer and better engine/transmission technology and design such as DI, Dual Continuous VVT, 5 and 6-speed autos, etc.

GM's High Value 3500/3900 pushrod V6s were created merely as a stop-gap until GM was able to ramp up production of their High Feature V6s to an adequate enough level so that they could be used in several high-volume models from several of their different brands.

The fact of the matter is that the 3.6HF V6 was GM's best option for use in their FWD midsize Epsilon vehicles because it was the most ideal match-up against the import's premium big-bore OHC V6s in refinement, performance, and efficiency. Their really was no other route they could have gone that would of been logical and sensible besides using the 3.6HF, which is an excellent and highly-rated motor, as the premium OHC V6 option in their FWD midsize Epsilon models to go head-to-head against the competition's FWD midsize offerings.

GM needs a modern, refined, and premium OHC 24-valve V6 in the 3.5L range such as the 3.6HF in their FWD midsize vehicles in order to compete with the other premium OHC V6-equipped FWD midsizers out there, plain and simple, because that is what the buying public demands, expects, and frankly deserves in today's FWD midsize V6-powered vehicle.

And it would be completely ludicrous for GM to deny their other brands which desperately need a superb premium OHC V6 such as the 3.6HF just for the sake of distinguishing and differentiating Cadillac from GM's other less-expensive brands because that would eventually lead to the destruction of Saturn, Pontiac, and Chevy. Their are other much better and less destructive ways to reduce product overlap between Cadillac and Saturn/Chevy/Pontiac other than depriving GM's less-expensive brands of what they need in order to compete.

[buildacariwant]

Originally Posted by Quickening

They are not on the same platform.

its been reported the next SRX will not be on sigma platform anymore

[63GrandSport001]

I really do not think that GM has a overlap issue with Cadillac and any other GM brand except maybe with the yukon Denali and the Cadillac lade.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by buildacariwant

its been reported the next SRX will not be on sigma platform anymore

Correct.
SRX is on ThetaEpsilon -- shared with the upcoming Saab 9-4X and potentially a Buick.

Originally Posted by Butz

If the engine is really really good, it shouldn't matter at all!

It "shouldn't" matter.... but it does matter.

[crazyjkz]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Correct.
SRX is on ThetaEpsilon -- shared with the upcoming Saab 9-4X and potentially a Buick.



It "shouldn't" matter.... but it does matter.

It does matter, but you can only take this argument so far because it can get to the point where you almost suggest that GM deprive and neglect its other brands with the exception of Cadillac just for the sake of reducing product overlap and to better differentiate Cadillac from GM's other less-expensive brands, and that's just not fair to Saturn, Pontiac, and Chevy.

If GM denied their less-expensive brands newer and better powertrain design and technology just for the sake of putting Cadillac on top of the pedestul then this would severely damage GM's other brands by strangling them with a lack of the powertrain goods that are required for success and to remain competitive, and GM simply can't afford to be so narrow minded in today's extremely competitive auto market. GM needs to be much more well-rounded than this, they need a lot more than just a successful and unique Cadillac brand to be successful as a whole.

Of course I'm not suggesting that Chevy and Cadillac models be indistinguishable and share identical powertrains and platforms, and there are several things that GM can do to help differentiate and distinguish Cadillac from Saturn/Chevy/Pontiac such as building the rumored 8-speed automatic for Cadillac use and introducing a 3.8L or 4.0L version of the High Feature V6 with DI for use in the STS/DTS replacement, next gen Lambda-based Escalade, next gen SRX, etc.

Or how about a slightly larger 3.2L-version of the 3.0HF DI V6 with slightly more aggressive cams, a high-flow intake system, etc for Cadillac use? These are relatively conservative differences that GM can make between Cadillac and GM's other brands without strangling Saturn, Pontiac, and Chevy of what they need to be successful and competitive.

Those several ideas I just mentioned alone would begin to create an adequate-enough of a difference between newer Cadillac models and newer Chevy/Pontiac/Saturn models WITHOUT depriving GM's less-expensive brands of the vital and essential powertrain goods they need to go head-to-head with the competition.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by crazyjkz

It does matter, but you can only take this argument so far because it can get to the point where you almost suggest that GM deprive and neglect its other brands with the exception of Cadillac just for the sake of reducing product overlap and to better differentiate Cadillac from GM's other less-expensive brands, and that's just not fair to Saturn, Pontiac, and Chevy.

If GM denied their less-expensive brands newer and better powertrain design and technology just for the sake of putting Cadillac on top of the pedestul then this would severely damage GM's other brands by strangling them with a lack of the powertrain goods that are required for success and to remain competitive, and GM simply can't afford to be so narrow minded in today's extremely competitive auto market. GM needs to be much more well-rounded than this, they need a lot more than just a successful and unique Cadillac brand to be successful as a whole.

Of course I'm not suggesting that Chevy and Cadillac models be indistinguishable and share identical powertrains and platforms, and there are several things that GM can do to help differentiate and distinguish Cadillac from Saturn/Chevy/Pontiac such as building the rumored 8-speed automatic for Cadillac use and introducing a 3.8L or 4.0L version of the High Feature V6 with DI for use in the STS/DTS replacement, next gen Lambda-based Escalade, etc.

Those two ideas I just mentioned alone would begin to create an adequate-enough of a difference between newer Cadillac models and newer Chevy/Pontiac/Saturn models WITHOUT depriving GM's less-expensive brands of the vital and essential powertrain goods they need to go head-to-head with the competition.

The key is to develop a business strategy that allows GM to raise the bar across the board but still give Cadillac that extra +1 or more to keep it on that pedestal.

The fact remains Cadillac needs to be better that anything offered at GM, in every category.

From the 1950's to the present, the idea has been to bring everything down, while keeping Cadillac up, giving the effect of Cadillac being "better," at the loss of all the other brands.
I don't believe that is correct.

So if GM just raised the bar and raised Cadillac's even more, GM would reach parity with the rest of the world instead of being the dowdy, large competitor.

The way GM is treating Cadillac now, don't ever expect anyone to ever respect or look up to the brand in the future. There are better choices out there.

[Beau]

Well don't worry guys, the 250 horse 3.0 that will come out in the caddi's will only have 240 horse in lesser vehicles.

Thats not the way it should go though. It shouldn't go, ok here is out baseline. Give that to Cadillac. Now, cork up the exhaust, restrict the intake, and there ya go 240 horse malibu motor.

[Quickening]

Ok. When are we seeing the SRX hit the market?

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by crazyjkz

Are you joking? Please explain to me how the Aura, G6, and Malibu could possibly compete with the premium 3.xL OHC 24-valve V6-equipped Altima/Camry/Accord/Mazda 6/Sebring/etc without a premium OHC 24-valve V6 option in the 3.2L-3.8L range?

We are in a very value oriented market and there is little if any market for $27K to 29K Malibus and it is insane that I have to pay $27,500 to get a set of Fog lights on a Malibu when I can get them on a $22,815 Camry SE or $23,595 Altima.

A 3500 V6 Malibu 1LT with 6-way power seat and Fog lights would sticker for around $24,515 and be a better value than the I-4 powered Camry SE or Altima but does GM offer it? No.

You need to learn something, anything about selling cars in a very hostile market and GM must make drastic changes to it's models feature offerings and there has never been a better time to offer a 3500 V6 Malibu and it will sell and it will increase Malibu sales 30% EASY.

There is only one way to find out if this will work - TRY IT.

There is nothing to lose, and if you did 5 seconds worth of market research on customer likes/dislikes on the Malibu/Aura you would find that the lack of rear seat center arm rest is mentioned constantly as an "suggested improvement" along with more power operated adjustments on the seats from 4 way to 6+ on the G6 to over 6-way on the Malibu/Aura midlevels and memory seats and Fog Lights also get mentioned often.

As for the engines 3500 V6 owners practically gush over the 30+MPG they get and are more than happy with the power as are most 2.4L owners with their main powertrain request a 6-speed auto which is now optional on most trim levels. 3.6L V6 owners are happy with the power but complain often about lackluster MPG.

Bottom line GM focused on the wrong area - there are far more complaints about cheap materials on the G6 interior and Aura door panels along with the lack of features (nav systems and backup cameras are mentioned) in addition to the missing arm rests, 8-way memory seats and fog lights.

GM can easly correct these and boost sales but chose instead to handicap the Malibu/G6/Aura with an expensive engine that precludes their ability to compete on a feature content level, an area far more potential buyers are affected by than the engine.

Until GM offers the features buyers really care about sales will languish it is that simple. GM does not have time to wait, it must act now and buyers love the power/MPG/value the 3500 V6 offers whether you think they do or not.

You are not going to buy the 50,000+ Malibu/G6/Aura models with a 3500 V6 and proper feature list the buying public is and they have told GM in no uncertain terms that they are willing to buy - GM refuses to listen and Toyota/Nissan/Honda profit.

[crazyjkz]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

We are in a very value oriented market and there is little if any market for $27K to 29K Malibus and it is insane that I have to pay $27,500 to get a set of Fog lights on a Malibu when I can get them on a $22,815 Camry SE or $23,595 Altima.

A 3500 V6 Malibu 1LT with 6-way power seat and Fog lights would sticker for around $24,515 and be a better value than the I-4 powered Camry SE or Altima but does GM offer it? No.

You need to learn something, anything about selling cars in a very hostile market and GM must make drastic changes to it's models feature offerings and there has never been a better time to offer a 3500 V6 Malibu and it will sell and it will increase Malibu sales 30% EASY.

There is only one way to find out if this will work - TRY IT.

There is nothing to lose, and if you did 5 seconds worth of market research on customer likes/dislikes on the Malibu/Aura you would find that the lack of rear seat center arm rest is mentioned constantly as an "suggested improvement" along with more power operated adjustments on the seats from 4 way to 6+ on the G6 to over 6-way on the Malibu/Aura midlevels and memory seats and Fog Lights also get mentioned often.

As for the engines 3500 V6 owners practically gush over the 30+MPG they get and are more than happy with the power as are most 2.4L owners with their main powertrain request a 6-speed auto which is now optional on most trim levels. 3.6L V6 owners are happy with the power but complain often about lackluster MPG.

Bottom line GM focused on the wrong area - there are far more complaints about cheap materials on the G6 interior and Aura door panels along with the lack of features (nav systems and backup cameras are mentioned) in addition to the missing arm rests, 8-way memory seats and fog lights.

GM can easly correct these and boost sales but chose instead to handicap the Malibu/G6/Aura with an expensive engine that precludes their ability to compete on a feature content level, an area far more potential buyers are affected by than the engine.

Until GM offers the features buyers really care about sales will languish it is that simple. GM does not have time to wait, it must act now and buyers love the power/MPG/value the 3500 V6 offers whether you think they do or not.

You are not going to buy the 50,000+ Malibu/G6/Aura models with a 3500 V6 and proper feature list the buying public is and they have told GM in no uncertain terms that they are willing to buy - GM refuses to listen and Toyota/Nissan/Honda profit.

The 3500 might be a good value but the bottom line here is it's still an unrefined, outdated, and uncompetitive engine, and there is no good reason why GM should continue to tarnish its brand image and media/consumer reputation by continuing to offer uncompetitive OHV V6s ESPECIALLY when it has just introduced two excellent new and upcoming I-4 and V6 engines, the 3.0HF DI V6 and 2.4L DI Ecotec I-4 into its stable. Both of these two new upcoming DI engines are far superior to the 3500 in refinement, performance, and fuel economy. The 3.0HF DI V6 is estimated to acheive 30mpg EPA highway and the 2.4L DI Ecotec will most definitely achieve over 33mpg EPA highway(the standard non-DI 2.4L Ecotec in the Aura currently is rated at 33mpg EPA highway).

This all means that the 3500 doesn't even have a single leg to stand on anymore, not even a mere fuel economy advantage over GM's far better OHC multi-valve I-4s and V6s. With new modern, refined, and highly competitive DI engines like the 3.0HF DI and 2.4 Ecotec DI being offered in new GM models in the very near future is it a surprise to anyone as to why GM got rid of this uncompetitive pushrod V6 offering in the Malibu and Aura(and soon to be G6)??

Bottom line here is that a majority of potential buyers are NOT intrigued by an unrefined and sluggish pushrod V6 engine anymore, plain and simple. This is the reason why the Aura XR consistently outsold the 3500-equipped Aura XE by a fairly wide margin. If GM wants to win over potential import buyers who would normally buy the Camcord and Altima then they need to offer the typical import powertrain which DOES NOT consist of(and rightfully so) an unrefined, sluggish, and low-revving lump of an engine like the 3500 with an archaic 4-speed automatic. Believe it or not but that is simply NOT what potential import buyers are looking for in their FWD midsizer, they are looking for modern and refined OHC multi-valve I-4s and V6s with 5 and 6-speed autos and this is what GM must offer if it plans on winning over potential import buyers who would normally go for the Camcord and Altima.

GM FINALLY realizes(after years and years of refusing to offer modern and refined OHC 24-valve V6s in its FWD midsize offerings) what consumers really want in a FWD midsize vehicle which is refined and modern DOHC I-4s and V6s with 5/6-speed autos and you are trying to knock them for it? If you are even attempting to suggest that the Aura/G6/Malibu could possibly compete with the Camcord/Altima/Mazda 6 WITHOUT offering a premium OHC 24-valve V6 option such as the 3.6HF then you are most definitely mistaken.

And the 3.6HF might of been an expensive engine when it was originally only offered in the CTS and STS, but that is no longer the case and this engine is now built in high-production numbers and is being offered in many different GM makes and models because it is an excellent and highly-rated premium OHC V6 offering and is praised by the media and consumers alike. I don't know if you noticed but the upcoming V6 Camaro features the same 3.6HF DI V6/6-speed auto/manual powertrains as the current CTS and is starting at a base price of only $22,995. Thats just about the same price as what a 2008 Aura XE w/3500 pushrod V6 went for, and less expensive than the current 3500-equipped G6. This is proof that production costs are gradually dropping for GM's High Feature V6s thanks to ramped-up production and use of these excellent premium OHC V6s.

This is the path that GM needs to continue to travel for improved brand image, successful sales numbers and ability to compete. Modern, refined, high-tech, and efficient Direct Injected I-4s and V6s such as the 3.6HF DI, 3.0HF DI, and upcoming 2.4 DI Ecotec along with 6-speed autos in every application. These are the excellent powertrains that new GM models are going to need if they plan on competing and stealing sales from the Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, and Honda.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by crazyjkz

The 3500 might be a good value

You don't get it do you, I am trying to retain the loyal GM owners of GM OHV V6 cars that will be lost to other makes when GM makes "lemming" cars that are no different than the competition.

GM can attract some Import owners with the 2.4L Malibu but will lose many due to the poor value the 1LT, 2LT and LTZ present against the Camry LE and SE - again GM should have never burdened the Malibu with the costly 3.6L.

GM should have only offered the 2.4L and 3500 V6 in the Malibu for 2008 and 2009 and made sure it had plenty of standard equipment, then it's sales would have been much higher than the are.

You grossly overestimate the average buyers knowledge of powertrains, I can tell you from real world experience if you give mid-size sedan buyers the features they want in the car like 8-way memory power seats at a good price with good MPG they don't care if there is a Hamster under the hood running on a wheel.

Car buyers are payment buyers and buy the car that gives them the features they want within their budget and will forget about high tech engines in the blink of an eye if they can get a nice interior or desired feature for a better price than they anticipated paying and the 3500 V6 is cheaper to make than the 3.0L or 3.6L (it will always cost more to make double the valves, Cams and bearings not to mention assemble them). I should know I estimate mfg/assy costs of transportation vehicles.

You may not like it but GM can sell thousands of cars with OHV V6 engines in them and do it for years to come if they only put they features on the car. You can keep trying to make a case for DOHC V6's as a "must have" feature but I can tell you from the real world experience you obviously do not have that you are wrong.

By the way I heard the same resistance when I kept telling GM it had to offer a well equipped I-4 sedan and I got the same reaction I am getting from you on the OHV V6 - I was right about the I-4 sedan as the strong sales of them in the Epsilon and vast majority of posts on GMI verify. And I am right about the well equipped OHV V6 in the Epsilon - now if GM would only listen.

I have been on the front lines selling cars to California buyers - don't tell me what they want or what they will buy.

[crazyjkz]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

GM can attract some Import owners with the 2.4L Malibu but will lose many due to the poor value the 1LT, 2LT and LTZ present against the Camry LE and SE - again GM should have never burdened the Malibu with the costly 3.6L.
GM should have only offered the 2.4L and 3500 V6 in the Malibu for 2008 and 2009 and made sure it had plenty of standard equipment, then it's sales would have been much higher than the are.

See this is where you are dead wrong. I don't care if a lot of consumers don't know the difference between an OHV or an OHC engine or 2-valve heads versus 4-valve heads, but the bottom line is their is no possible way that the current Malibu(or Aura or G6) can compete with the OHC 24-valve V6-equipped Camry/Accord/Altima/Mazda 6 WITHOUT a premium OHC 24-valve V6 option like the 3.6HF. And that is not an opinion, that is a FACT. If GM didn't offer the 3.6HF in their FWD Epsilon midsizers(Aura, G6, and Malibu) then they would have absolutely no chance of winning over the potential import buyers who want a premium OHC V6-powered FWD midsizer over the I-4 models, and this is not as small of a percentage of potential import buyers as you might think.

It's all about IMAGE, and ultimately the unrefined and oudated High Value OHV V6s like the 3500 and 3900 have seriously hurt GM's brand image(and media and consumer reputation) in general for years and years now and if they continued to use these uncompetitive OHV V6s in their vehicles it would make matters even worse.

And with the 2.4 Ecotec now receiving direct injection and at least 200hp their's even less of a reason to offer the 3500 in any Epsilon vehicles anymore because at this point with DI and the 6-speed autos the 2.4 Ecotec will have just as good if not better performance than the 3500 with superior refinement AND fuel economy. It just doesn't make sense for GM to offer an unrefined and uncompetitive High Value OHV V6 anymore, not when today's average 2.3L-2.5L DOHC 16-valve I-4 with technologies like VVT and Direct Injection can equal or exceed the 3500 in performance along with superior fuel economy and refinement. The current 4-cylinder 2.5 Altima achieves this even WITHOUT direct injection.

This means that the 3500 has absolutely ZERO advantages over the upcoming 2.4L DI Ecotec, and actually would trail the DI Ecotec in refinement and fuel economy, so what would be the advantage in offering the 3500? Am I missing something here??

I don't care if only 10% of Malibu buyers purchase the 3.6HF-equipped LTZ Malibu over the 2.4L Ecotec models, GM still must at least offer a premium OHC V6 option in their FWD midsize offerings in order to compete with the imports. And the reality of the situation is that consumers ARE buying the 3.6HF-powered Epsilons whether you want to admit it or not, that's why the 3.6HF-powered Aura XR had consistently outsold the 3500-powered Aura XE for the 2007 and 2008 model years.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by crazyjkz

See this is where you are dead wrong. I don't care if a lot of consumers don't know the difference between an OHV or an OHC engine or 2-valve heads versus 4-valve heads, but the bottom line is their is no possible way that the current Malibu(or Aura or G6) can compete with the OHC 24-valve V6-equipped Camry/Accord/Altima/Mazda 6 WITHOUT a premium OHC 24-valve V6 option like the 3.6HF.

This is where you and GM are totally wrong and why GM may go bankrupt - did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe the millions of happy GM midsize owners of these V6 powered cars:
Century (100% OHV V6)
Regal (100% OHV V6)
LeSabre (100% OHV V6)
Park Ave (100% OHV V6)
Malibu (pre-2008) (100% OHV V6)
Impala (100% OHV V6)
Monte Carlo (100% OHV V6)
Grand Am (100% OHV V6)
Grand Prix (100% OHV V6)
Delta 88(100% OHV V6)
Cutlass (100% OHV V6)
Alero (100% OHV V6)

And these high percentage OHV V6 models
Intrigue
LaCrosse
Lucerne
G6

MAY actually want a OHV V6 powered Epsilon properly equipped with features they are willing to spend money on?

As long as GM goes out of their way to alienate existing owners they have no chance as this violates the first rule of marketing - take care of your loyal customers first since you know they will give you a chance.

I guarantee you that GM has lost thousands of 2008-2009 Maibu sales from the above mentioned owners when they discovered they powertrain they wanted was not available, GM finally got the car right (mostly) but shoots itself in the foot with the powertrain - Not Smart. And the lost sales dwarf any potential "conquest" sales to Import V6 buyers - again NOT SMART.

And before you get going on the DOHC nonsense, go to you nearest GM dealer and spend the entire weekend there and ask the sales reps how many potential buyers care about what is under the hood or if they are far more concerned about how much the car will cost them to buy and operate, until then spare us from your marketing ignorance.

[wescoent]

I like this dialogue.

For the record, 80%+ of Accords, Camrys, and Altimas are sold with their smooth and efficient I4, and this was BEFORE the fuel disaster this summer.

Aura, Malibu, and G6 should all ensure that they have an excellent I4-auto-6-speed available, and make sure a buyer can get all of the luxury equipment they want with it.

A V6 should not be a "value" option... it should be the high-tech sporty speedster option. If the I4 is built right and is smooth enough, most buyers won't want the V6 anyway.

OHV V6s are a losing proposition. You may list out all these great GM cars with OHV V6's, but these were all built when GM's sales were dropping like a rock, and MOST of those cars were sold to fleet buyers and rental agencies. If buyers don't know the difference, then what's wrong with offering a powerful I4, and leaving the V6 to the highest end version of the car?