GMI Exclusive: SRX, Equinox To Get 3.0L HF V6

[Dr. Show-Me]

Mgescuro, you didn't refute anything I said in my previous post. I think the approach I suggested more raise Cadillac's image and improve the buyers' experience in owning a Cadillac.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by Olds88

I give credit where its due and here it is not due.

I am mostly nitpicking here. I thought your comment "Toyota has made 2 great engines of note in the last decade and one is dead." is excessive. Toyota may not have many truly great engines, but they do have a lot of very competitive ones.

Nissan's VQ35 is better than Camry's 3.5L, unfortunately the transmissions its paired to are junk.

I wasn't speaking of transmissions, just engines. And the VQ35 delivers equivalent power but requires premium fuel and still gives lower fuel economy. Compare the Camry to Altima or Avalon to Maxima, or Sienna to Quest.

In this segment, I think the Toyota V6 is still the benchmark.

Nissan's VQ37 is better than any Lexus V6. The new G37 is faster than the IS350.

Good point. With the move to 7 speed automatics, the G37 sedan beats the IS350 on speed and economy both. Very impressive, and I withdraw my listing of the IS350.

In the minivans, Dodge's 4.0L screams past the Sienna.

Does it? The last comparison I read put the Sienna as the fastest minivan to 60 mph by almost a full second. And the Dodge 4.0 does not get better fuel economy either.

Dodge's 390hp 5.7L HEMI is better than the Toyota 5.7L in every aspect. Better power, better reliability, better packaging, better fuel economy, etc.

The 5.7 was the segment leader until the new Hemi hit the market barely two months ago. I would say the 5.7 was of note, it was the king of pickup engines for empty and loaded acceleration from the $27,000-$38,000 price range for about a year at a half in a time when every automaker was bringing their best resources to bear on the pickup market.

The 4.6L isn't as good as the S-class's V8.

The S-class's V8 is 0.9 liters larger in displacement, just marginally faster, and gets 2 mpg lower city and highway versus the LS 460 L. I think the Lexus 4.6 is legitimately top notch.

I'm not saying there aren't good or uncompetitive, just that there's something better in every class, especially I4's.

I'm not disputing that Toyota's 4-bangers lag the class leaders.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by jasaero

I think the biggest reason for this shift is that most people that buy in this segment are non-enthusiast women. I just don't think RWD and great handling drive sales so much as shape and overall styling direction. So even if someone like me purchase a vehicle like this, chances are it will be for our wife to drive and she will be making the final decision on which product actually gets purchased. Our desire to have a fun to drive SUV like the X5 or Current SRX could likely be trumped by the fact she thinks the RX or MDX is "Cuter".

Non-enthusiast women? Well, that I have no insight into that market segment, so I can't form an argument one way or the other. I don't even have any insight into buying trends or customer behavior. You got me. But it is certainly feasible and most likely plausible that this is a growing segment.

I would posit that a far greater attention to detail would be necessary to attract this assumed burgeoning buyer group.

Originally Posted by jasaero

If Image is the primary thing that needs to be accomplished nothing really needs to be different other than design! And even that doesn't need much differentiation or Escalade would be a dismal failure!!

BUt Cadillac doesn't even differ designs sufficiently.

Originally Posted by jasaero

This is an MG pipe dream. I'm not sure what you mean by Variable cylinders even. Any techniques I have seen for varying displacement would require investment in a range orders of magnitude larger than the total sum spent on Cadillac as a whole over the last 10 years to even become close to production capable and reliable. Just because something is designed with some capability in mind doesn't mean such capabilities are anywhere near production ready or even somewhat reliable with current tech.

Pipe dream? I don't think so. I don't see why Cadillac, in the future, doesn't have a V6 that fits in a BLS, a CTS, and an STS/DTS at varying displacements and/or HP ratings. NOr do I believe Cadillac could have a V8 that shares similar mechanicals to said V6 for the same range of vehicles, with varying displacements and HP ratings.

That the initial premise of the HF engines and UltraV8 after all. But instead of sharing it across the GM produce lineup, it would only be shared up and down the Cadillac lineup.

How much better would Cadillac's marketing be with with tag lines like "The Cadillac exclusive BlahBlah V6 engine with 350HP and 30mpg fuel economy."

Certainly better than showing off to your friends and having them say, "Oh yeah, isn't that same engine in an Equinox? Dude you got ripped off!!"

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

Mgescuro, you didn't refute anything I said in my previous post. I think the approach I suggested more raise Cadillac's image and improve the buyers' experience in owning a Cadillac.

I didn't refute anything in your post because there was nothing for me to refute. Except for the fact that MB did allow Chrysler's use of Mercedes mechanicals and engines; however, Chrysler was limited to using older mechanicals not use in current Mercedes on sale.

BMW has Mini and doesn't share mechanicals there.
Mercedes has SMART and against doens't share there as well.

Also, I agree, having a certain level of amenities in Cadillacs across the board would raise the profile. But like I said, Cadillac is inconsistent.

[red_rider]

Originally Posted by b4z

Hope nobody takes this personally:

GM is in a fight for survival. Chevrolet is not in competition anymore with pontiac, or buick with Caddy.
They are fighting against DOHC Nissans, Hondas and Toyotas. Some are espousing higher end engines in Caddys.
Then why don't we put pushrods in everything else?
You can get a twin turbo 3L in a 1 series, 3, 5 and 6. Do you think the 5 series guy thinks he's getting a lesser engine? Hell no.
Some of y'all are living in 1978, worried about which engine is in which brand.
Ridiculous.
Quality motors in all cars and brands is the only way GM will survive.

Technically, I don't see why not. lb for lb, $ for $, and mpg for mpg, the LS V8's match/beat pretty much anything out there. The thing is that GM already has the foundation for a series of other very good engines (that happen to be DOHC, namely the HF series V6's) that serve the v6 purpose, so it probably wouldn't make sense to use company resources developing an LS v6 line.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Non-enthusiast women? Well, that I have no insight into that market segment, so I can't form an argument one way or the other. I don't even have any insight into buying trends or customer behavior. You got me. But it is certainly feasible and most likely plausible that this is a growing segment.

I would posit that a far greater attention to detail would be necessary to attract this assumed burgeoning buyer group.

That's just all I see in these sorts of vehicles. Rarely see dudes driving Luxury CUV's, even the BMW and MB ones are usually women. I see way more Lexus and Acura ones though than BMW or MB and think that has mostly to do with the less trucklike funky designs of the Japanese ones.

Originally Posted by MG

BUt Cadillac doesn't even differ designs sufficiently.

Huh? Other than Escalade what vehicle in Cadillac's lineup even has a passing similarity to another GM car?? DTS and Lucerne are probably closest outside the Escalade, but doubt most even see them as being based off the same chassis if they didn't see the interior. But still, that's two of 6 vehicles and also just so happen to be the only two Old Cadillac models that were successful enough to survive into the new Cadillac era.

Until I have seen the new SRX next to the new Equinox I simply can't assume as you apparently are that they will look too similar. Have seen the new Traverse though and have to say it looks nothing like any of the other Lambda's in person. Doesn't even seem the same size, even though it is.

Originally Posted by MG

Pipe dream? I don't think so. I don't see why Cadillac, in the future, doesn't have a V6 that fits in a BLS, a CTS, and an STS/DTS at varying displacements and/or HP ratings. NOr do I believe Cadillac could have a V8 that shares similar mechanicals to said V6 for the same range of vehicles, with varying displacements and HP ratings.

That the initial premise of the HF engines and UltraV8 after all. But instead of sharing it across the GM produce lineup, it would only be shared up and down the Cadillac lineup.

How much better would Cadillac's marketing be with with tag lines like "The Cadillac exclusive BlahBlah V6 engine with 350HP and 30mpg fuel economy."

Certainly better than showing off to your friends and having them say, "Oh yeah, isn't that same engine in an Equinox? Dude you got ripped off!!"

Ok. So you are talking about different engines with different displacements and cylinder counts from the same block and parts bin! I think that is basically what we are getting with the 3.0L DI and 3.8L DI! It's already been decided these will be shared with other GM products. Do they take them away from other GM products and let them suffer?? I am confused what engine you suggest Caddy should have that would be different from the rest of the brands while not cost MASSIVE investment to develop some fancy extra featuresets not in current or soon to come engines on lesser GM brands?? Or are you just suggesting Nox get only non-turbo sixes and fours and Caddies get turbo versions and V8's?

Really though so long as some of the most sophisticated engines around can be had in Toyota's, Honda's, Nissans, and such I really don't see how GM can deny Chevy similar tech just to keep Caddy differentiated if Toyo, Honda, and Nissan aren't doing the same thing with Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti. Acura probably does the most tweaking of the lesser brands engines before putting them in the Acura and they also happen to still be the weakest of those three brands so it apparently isn't helping as much as having unique vehicles overall. Really I don't think most are going to know how similar the powertrains are anyhow. They will be more concerned with how much more upscale the overall package is rather than whether or not it's engine is used in cheaper vehicles.

Really if it weren't for marketing issues I would suggest keeping the HF engines for Caddy and Buick only as you want and investing more in the OHV engine family for Chevy and other lesser brands if it weren't nearly impossible to keep people happy with those engines. Really I think those engines could be plenty refined, effiecient and powerful if they were invested in more, but GM has all but abonded modernizing OHV more outside V8's. They could then pull the UltraV8 back off the shelf for lux V8 and everything would be 100% differentiated, but then the uninformed would call ALL non-Premium GM products behind the times for only using OHV engines even if they had DI, two cam in block or two piece cam, 3v per cylinder, and all the power and efficiency of DOHC products. May as well focus on one DOHC engine family for the WHOLE company.

[eaton53]

I'm trying to figure this out... which luxury vehicles are made by a company that has like-sized non-luxury vehicles and aren't sharing engines?

Coming up kinda empty.... oh wait, those are all "fake" luxury brands. Never mind.

[crazyjkz]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

3.0L engine will be a great engine for GM ultimately. But in a Cadillac, it just shows the plebian status of the brand.

I'm not lowering my standards for what I believe Cadillac can and should be. It's about time all you GMI lemmings start looking at the potential of Cadillac and how GM has ruined Cadillac... again... and the reasonings behind the ruination.

So you're suggesting that Cadillac shouldn't receive the 3.0L High Feature V6? You do realize that the High Feature V6 family in 2.8L and 3.6L form was introduced to GM North America as Cadillac-ONLY V6 powerplants don't you? The High Feature V6 was first designed, tested, and produced in a joint team by Cadillac and Holden, therefore how would it make sense for GM to NOT give Cadillac a 3.0L-version of their own engine??

The premium High Feature V6 family was first introduced to GM's U.S. brands in 2004 as replacement for the Opel 3.2L 54-degree V6 in the Cadillac CTS, and it was inevitable that the premium HF V6 motors trickled down to Saturn, Chevy, and Pontiac models through no fault of GM in order for those brands to properly compete with the competition. It was consumer and media demand that made this happen just like it did with Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.

Using your logic, if GM had kept the High Feature V6 family for use in the Cadillac model lineup ONLY then this would of left the Aura, G6, and Malibu severely lacking against the Altima, Camry, and Accord, not to mention the Theta and Lambda SUVs. This would of resulted in the Saturn/Chevy/Pontiac/Buick divisions having no premium OHC multi-valve V6 option to go head-to-head with the Nissan/Honda/Toyota premium OHC 24-valve V6 options in the Camcord and Altima and these GM divisons would of been left with uncompetitive and outdated 3500/3900 High Value OHV V6s which in no way were capable of competing with the import's premium OHC multi-valve V6s.

Without a premium and refined OHC VVT 24-valve V6 and left only with GM's uncompetitive High Value OHV V6s for their V6-powered models, Saturn/Pontiac/Chevy would have ultimately been massacred by GM with the inevitable destruction of the brand image, sales numbers, and overall media/consumer reputation of these GM divisons. But hey look at the bright side, at least now nobody would mistake a Cadillac powertrain for a Chevy, Saturn, or Pontiac powertrain, right? Not exactly a logical or intelligent way to run a gigantic multi-billion dollar auto manufacturer.

Historically speaking most of the other auto maker's premium OHC multi-valve V6s followed the same path that GM's premium High Feature V6s travelled which is beginning as a premium luxury brand ONLY engine and then eventually succumbing to the pressure of the potential buyer and media demand which wanted premium OHC multi-valve V6 options in more affordable makes and models. A perfect example would be Honda's C-series original premium OHC V6 family beginning it's life in the Acura Legend only and then eventually being passed down to the Honda Accord.

I agree that GM does need to give Cadillac some differences between their other less expensive brands in order to distinguish it from those brands but there's only so far you can take that argument because it almost turns into suggesting that GM continue to neglect Saturn/Pontiac/Chevy/Buick just for the sake of putting Cadillac on top of the pedestal and that's just not fair to GM's other brands.

GM needs A LOT more than mere success in only Cadillac in order to be successful as a whole. At this point they can't afford to forget about their other brands and they can't hold back their newer and better engines and technology just for the sake of keeping Cadillac a "+1" brand.

The best things GM could do to better distinguish it's Cadillac models is to first continue working on the rumored 8-speed auto for new Cadillac vehicles therefore leaving their competitive 6-speed auto for all of the other less expensive brands(Saturn, Pontiac, Chevy, etc.). Secondly, a 3.8L or 4.0L version of the High Feature V6 with DI would be great to better distinguish newer Cadillac models such as the STS/DTS replacement, next gen Lambda-based Escalade, next-gen SRX(as an upgrade to the 3.0HF), etc. The High Feature block is expandable up to 4.0L and GM could and should use this along with the 8-speed auto to better differentiate and distinguish its Cadillac models.

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Bingo.
I was hoping someone was going to bring this up. How does a Cadillac "look or act" as an "upgrade" from a Chevy? Truth it, it really doesn't. Even Audis look like upgrade VW's. You can't get away from it.

The only way to make sure that SRX doesn't look or act like a Chevy is to not to put it on a similar platform. I'm still trying to figure out why SRX is on ThetaEpislon instead of Sigma.

Why does Hyundai's Genesis commercial's always compare it to a 5 series with the room of an S-Class? Do you think Mercedes or BMW customers would seriously consider a Genesis? Absolutely not! Why? Image.

1) Cadillacs look and act much different than Chevy's. Your bias is showing, or maybe your inside knowledge of how they're related is biasing your view. You point to how Lexus accommodates premium and Toyota doesn't. Do you understand how easy that is to do with software? What if Toyota leaving this bit of code out of their Camry is what costs them sales when Hyundai throws it in for free? Audi does use VW motors as their base motors. Most BMW's and Mercedes are sold worldwide with 4 cylinder motors (sometimes mit Kompressor).

2) The last Gen SRX was on Sigma - look how well that turned out - it got spanked by the RX300, RX330. Which is on the Camry platform by the way. I think you're oversimplifying if you think one platform cannot be tuned for another division. The farther in advance the plan includes that platform, the fewer compromises have to be made. I think TE was always supposed to be Cadillac and Saab. I don't mind at all that GM sicked the cost cutting team on the platform and decided to let Chevy have it. The Sigma forces too many compromises when you're designing a utility vehicle.

3) The Genesis would be a flop if its only goal was to get MB and BMW customers - they'll get plenty of those, but there are also plenty of people who used to aspire to owning a Mercedes, that will suddenly say "why bother?" Same applies to Cadillac - they've always gotten a better version of the engine than any other division (the 6.2 with 403 hp, the 3.6, then the 3.6 DI, the Northstar) I don't understand why you think they're not going to get a special version of the 3.0 now. For the record - the high end Cadillac engines are wetting a lot of diapers in Japan and Germany...

In any case, the customer buying the "base" Cadillac engine is not the snob or the performance junkie you make him out to be. If I just like the style, the customer attention, Nav system / bluetooth, or just 4 heated seats and a fine leather interior that Cadillac gives me, why should I have to pay for tooling designed to increase horsepower when I'm willing to accept the base engine (which is the top engine in some of the Chevys BTW)? Luxury does NOT mean being forced to pay for engine that Mgescuro thinks you should have, Luxury is being able to choose the engine that suits your needs. If you're right and the 3.0 and the 3.6 are shared between all TE models, that would be disappointing.

If it were my money, I'd put a BAS+ hybrid in every base Cadillac - I predict that customer would happily pay a thousand or two to have the engine shut itself off and gain 4 mpg or so as a result. Standard of the world is held by Rolls, Bentley, and Maybach - If you expect to see Cadillac going after those with a 3 liter engine, I'm not sure I'm following the "Escher diagram" you're laying out. Note that BMW, VW Audi, and MB felt like they had to use another brand to achieve that standard. Cadillac COULD pull this off with a ULS, so maybe they're better regarded than you think.

[Beau]

Again. All of this anger from those who say:

- Cadillac MUST have the premium motors.
And the others that state
- Other GM brands must have them to remain competetive.

Ok. HERES HOW YA DO IT!

3.0VVT DI V6 in the Malibu. 250 horse.
3.0VVT DI V6 as base in the CTS 270 horse

WHAA?

YEP, its CRAZY! See sometimes there are these little sticks with a lot of lobes on them, they vary in amplitude and girth, alng with pitch, and they move other components to make a little pair of metal discs fall into the motor, and they let air in or out.

Guys.

The Altima makes 270 horse. The same motor with cam changes and tuning tweaks makes 306 horse.

There's your answer Fish-Bulb.

[nsap]

Originally Posted by Beau

Again. All of this anger from those who say:

- Cadillac MUST have the premium motors.
And the others that state
- Other GM brands must have them to remain competetive.

Ok. HERES HOW YA DO IT!

3.0VVT DI V6 in the Malibu. 250 horse.
3.0VVT DI V6 as base in the CTS 270 horse

WHAA?

YEP, its CRAZY! See sometimes there are these little sticks with a lot of lobes on them, they vary in amplitude and girth, alng with pitch, and they move other components to make a little pair of metal discs fall into the motor, and they let air in or out.

Guys.

The Altima makes 270 horse. The same motor with cam changes and tuning tweaks makes 306 horse.

There's your answer Fish-Bulb.

Agreed. Those that feel Cadillac needs it's own engine line are kidding themselves...it won't be happening anytime soon (if ever!).

[JPlatinumInc]

I hope that Volt comes out in 2010 because there talking aboout suspending funding for the volt for now because they have no money

[JPlatinumInc]

this sucks im really looking forward to buying that car when it comes out

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by crazyjkz

So you're suggesting that Cadillac shouldn't receive the 3.0L High Feature V6?

Think he means no other brand should be using it for a year or two.

Originally Posted by crazyjkz

The premium High Feature V6 family was first introduced to GM's U.S. brands in 2004 as replacement for the Opel 3.2L 54-degree V6 in the Cadillac CTS, and it was inevitable that the premium HF V6 motors trickled down to Saturn, Chevy, and Pontiac models through no fault of GM in order for those brands to properly compete with the competition. It was consumer and media demand that made this happen just like it did with Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.

Saturn, Chevy and Pontiac models do not need the 3.6L V6 and GM should have focused more on getting the 2.3L DI engine to the Epsilon along with items like rear seat arm rests.

Originally Posted by crazyjkz

Historically speaking most of the other auto maker's premium OHC multi-valve V6s followed the same path that GM's premium High Feature V6s travelled which is beginning as a premium luxury brand ONLY engine and then eventually succumbing to the pressure of the potential buyer and media demand which wanted premium OHC multi-valve V6 options in more affordable makes and models. A perfect example would be Honda's C-series original premium OHC V6 family beginning it's life in the Acura Legend only and then eventually being passed down to the Honda Accord.

You mean the 2.7L V6 we could not give away in Accord V6 models?

[63GrandSport001]

I don't think that Cadillac needs its own exclusive I-4s and V-6 engines and maybe not even its own V-8 engines either. However I do think that they should make a few V-12 cars and those would be exclusive as I don't see Chevy with a V-12.

[Butz]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Whoooo... same engine as a Chevy!!
The news keeps getting better and better and better....
I hope the 9-4X is spared the ignominy.

If the engine is really really good, it shouldn't matter at all!