Only@GMI: Cadillac Zeta Car Rumored Dead

[johnstarnes]

Docray, you saw the DT7?

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by NoSpelCheckr

I think this has to do with the MKZ now outselling the STS almost 2 to 1 and GM management not sure about anything. Instead of looking at numbers all day and trying to react to them, GM management should use some damn common sense and do what seems right. Yeah, the MKZ may be selling well now but that doesn't mean you have to cancal all RWD platforms and move everything to FWD/AWD. Lincoln hasn't had a worthy product in forever and all the die hards have been sitting on their money waiting for this car. Management probably wants to pull the funds and wait to see what happens. Bad idea as that will only put GM further behind. You have made the right decision. Now stick with it and show the world that you aren't clueless.

Furthermore, I think the STS is the best looking Caddy. I like the CTS but not as much. I don't know why it isn't selling well. Caddy should address the issues that people have with it in an evelutionary design. Drop the DTS and add a serious 3 series fighter. If people are confused about the CTS class/price then add a bunch of gadgets and price it just under a 5 series.

?????
The MKZ should outsell the STS. Its price starts nearly $15K less than the STS. The MKZ is more fairly compared to the CTS, though it too is more money.

[67Chevelle]

This program was put on hold last week pending final decision.

[PAULSTS1]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

If the cash is not there, then the cash is not there.

It would seem that GM is pouring all available resources into the Volt and plug-in Vue. Everything else can wait. Other than the Cruze and Beat (and even even with them, U.S. introduction is delayed), what else is getting pushed forward? All I can think of are a couple of CTS variants and the Camaro.

I've been through this tripe before: The Volt will bomb, as GM tries to do it on a shoestring, Toyota, BMW, or even VW will come out with a breakthrough design, and dominate the Hybrid Market. GM has proven time after time that it won't take the steps necessary to innovate. It will do only enough to get some product to market, then depend on the loyality of former customers, to buy what they offered. This time they will lose big time, the customer base ain't there!

[paul8488]

Originally Posted by PAULSTS1

The Volt will bomb, as GM tries to do it on a shoestring, Toyota, BMW, or even VW will come out with a breakthrough design, and dominate the Hybrid Market.

PAULSTS, meet 2009 Honda Insight, starting under $19,000.

You can have two for the expected price of the Volt!

[Sal Collaziano]

The Acura TL will soon have a 400+ horsepower v8, rwd full-size vehicle. Infiniti is working on the next Q45... They gave up, but they're giving it another shot. Since they're financially in a better position, I think they will succeed...

Originally Posted by markform

True, but no way I see Cadillac being successful with a top end luxury car. Acura and Infiniti gave up this game a long time ago, and they are much better positioned in terms of engineering firepower, reputation and dealer facilities than Cadillac.

[BigThreeForever]

GM is clearly a lost cause under present management.

It spends years of engineering effort and stacks of cash on developing ambitious new platforms, engines and models, and then, not long before their planned introduction, cancels them for some BS reason.

The waste is truly sickening. The customers and dealers are fobbed off with outdated and underdeveloped crap. GM's image suffers, even among the die-hard faithful (i.e., us) and the competition rejoices.

Fire the entire joke of a management board NOW, and hire a new, competent board, composed of those with the intellectual capacity, insight and commercial acumen to first save the firm, and then - in the fullness of time - restore it to pre-eminence.

Raid Toyota, BMW, Honda, whoever . . . . headhunt their experts and pay them whatever it takes to jump ship. Maybe Dr Wolfgang Reitzle for Chairman?

I'm getting so utterly sick of all this dismal, depressing, defeatist crap.

[Sal Collaziano]

I like the STS but I'm talking about full, full-size.. 7-Series / S-Class size.. I think a vehicle with those dimensions and a look similar to that of the CTS would do fine. Similar - not exact...

[quote=LucheySchoe;1476070]

Originally Posted by Sal Collaziano

I like the idea of a CTS looking DTS. A full-size CTS would be very nice. In fact, I would own it right now if one existed.. It doesn't have to Mimic the CTS - but use the same design strategy...


They have one right now. The STS.

Its a larger, more luxury CTS. It handles well in the twisty’s, rides like a luxury car down the highway and still returns a combined fuel economy of 24 mpg on regular gas (observed on a daily 45 mile long commute of city/highway/stop-n-go traffic). Plus it will comfortably accommodate my family of 4 for long hauls.

My 05 STS is hands down my favorite car that I’ve owned to date!

[PAULSTS1]

Originally Posted by fp115

If that were true, the BMW employee that lives next door wouldn't have said the exact opposite. They are at the point that dealerships cannot order to fully loaded cars anymore and are keeping things rather low. Already if you have a BMW starting at $40k, you will pay $60k because of all the options. But with the inflation on prices customers saw an average of $2.5k price increase. Already BMW aren't very efficient on gas, so on top of paying increase car costs, cost of gas versus a fuel efficient alternative and another almost $2.5-5k in CAFE fines if they don't comply, why would anyone want to bother with BMW? BMW sales have been getting sloppier, especially on the X3, 5, 6, and 7 series. Coincidence?

Hi FP115:

It's called the "Credit Crisis," your neighbor may be dealing with the amount of his payments! In the past several years, a lot of buyer of dubious means bought upmarket, vehicles they didn't have cash to pay for, by RENTING, aka leasing. The Leasing market is constricting, and more and more people will have to buy what they can truly afford. In many cases this means, trading down, to vehicles which in years past these 'status conscious people" would not have considered. The cost of fuel is also hitting these "marginal customers."

[Sal Collaziano]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Cadillac FTS -- Fleetwood Touring Sedan

[Hoboken Tim]

Originally Posted by Docray1

The STS is gone in the USA after the 2010 model year. The DTS will continue until a new solution is devised (or money is found to "resurrect" the Zeta based DT7) and will soon offer a V6. The mid-cycle Escalade refresh has also been dropped, by the way.

How can the DTS continue, when the plant that makes it is scheduled to make the volt?

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by Hoboken Tim

I understand that GM needs to concentrate on small car at the moment and conserve cash. They should bring over the long wheel base STS from china, so they have a large car to replace the DTS, until they have the money for a proper flag ship.

I agree, Tim. Similar thought to what I had a few pages back.

Must be a Jersey thing!

Originally Posted by nadepalma

Got to the discussion late and didn't have a chance to read many posts - but I take this idea isn't too popular thus far on GMI?!?

I can see only two reasons GM would do this - CAFE and/or cost.

If it's CAFE, there is no reason to believe that GM couldn't make up for the CAFE loss it would experience on the DTS's replacement on other, more fuel efficient products. Chances are that they would sell only 30,000 to 40,000 flagship units per year - so why couldn't selling a few more Cruzes, Aveos, or Astras per year to make up for it?

If it is a matter of cost in light of model reshuffling, then there is no reason to think that GM couldn't postpone the program for a year or so.

Failing that, then why not reuse what GM already has available for the basis of the DTS/STS replacement? We know from the Chinese market SLS that the Sigma platform can be stretched and widened to accomodate a larger product than the US market STS. Why not take that basic platform and create a DTS/STS replacement based on it? Any mechanical updates can be taken from the new CTS and GM's design studio could do a complete redo inside and out to make it appear like an all new product --- just as the CTS has been redone.

Assuming GM may be halting a Caddy Zeta car due to cost, then reusing the Sigma platform may be the best solution. Since the Sigma platform is already up and running, it wouldn't cost GM anything extra to produce it in Michigan alongside the CTS (and the SRX for a bit longer). Afterall, it isn't as if the Sigma platform is an outdated architecture; just a bit pricey to produce.


Chinese market Cadillac SLS

Quite true - what is BMW without the 7-Series or Benz without the S-Class to showcase their technology?

But the point is well made - why not reuse what you have (which is already a competitive platform) and stretch it to accomodate a proper STS/DTS replacement? You'd end up with a flagship that takes the length and presence of the DTS and the RWD layout and technologies from the STS. How could this be a bad idea?

The only thing I can think of is GM's "engine problem" - that is, what powertrains do you offer for such a product?

The FWD/transverse NorthStar is only capable of running around 300hp - probably not enough for a top-spec engine on a flagship. So we'd take the longitudinal version of the NorthStar - but that only puts out around 320hp. Maybe GM doesn't think either is enough?

That would imply that either you supercharge/turbocharge an engine in the current lineup or you come up with a new engine. But as we all know, the Ultra V8 is not moving forward due to CAFE - so what is GM to do? They could make the 3.6L DI engine standard fare, then offer a turbo version of the NorthStar down the line, or maybe bore out the NorthStar to 5.0L for more power?

Who knows...but perhaps this is also an "engine problem" angle to this entire debate as well?

Just thinking out loud.

[Sal Collaziano]

How about using the current supercharged Northstar found in the STS-V? It has 469 horsepower.

[BORG]

GM could use a single large FWD/AWD car platform to underpin the DTS, Impala, and Buick sedans. Hopefully they are looking at platform consolidation while they reconsider their product portfolio.

Ford has D3 which underpins Taurus, Taurux X, Sable, Flex, MKS, and the next Explorer. That is a lot of bang for Ford's buck. Ideally, GM will be able to do the same.

[ausrutherford]

Not a good idea!