Breaking News: Strike is Over!

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by MechEng

Look I agree that many plant floor workers make more than engineers (including myself). The disadvantage that I was refering to was between GM and companies like Toyota.

Toyota here in Canada pays some line workers as much as $35/hr. Way more than I make. And i'm on contract.

Wall Street says that the Disadvantage that GM has over labour costs is 1.5K more than Toyota. And I cannot see where they get that number from.

I agree that it's not fair that many line workers make as much as they do. But personally I don't think they are hugely over paid (over paid yes but no hugely over paid). I think that I and other engineers like me are way under paid.

The difference comes from a number of things, including how much GM pays in benefits.

Toyota may offer similar benefits, but I bet there workers have higher co-pays. At least here in the US, using Canada as an example can't work due to your socialized medicine.

Remember the wage gap is for UAW versus Toyota, NOT CAW.

[Gm_Tooler]

Originally Posted by jasaero

I have heard though that a lot of moves like this happen because they move to more senior positions without needing union seniority to make the move also correct?? So the employees are also good and smart employees that just haven't got the seniority to make much under a union? This is the biggest aspect of why Unions annoy me. Time in an industry matters more than how good and efficient you are at the tasks you are given in deciding pay. That's just not a good way to run an industry where efficiency and quality is so important.

The only way to become "good and efficient" is thru experience - in this case, "time in the industry".
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[MechEng]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

The difference comes from a number of things, including how much GM pays in benefits.

Toyota may offer similar benefits, but I bet there workers have higher co-pays. At least here in the US, using Canada as an example can't work due to your socialized medicine.

Remember the wage gap is for UAW versus Toyota, NOT CAW.

True but the UAW doesn't pay to much different from the CAW (esspecially with the dollar at par).

I know health care in Canada is cheaper. But it's also cheaper for the CAW. The pay and benifits in Toyota's plant in KY is not much different than that in Cambridge, ON. And the UAW pay and benifits are not that much different than the CAW's. I figure it's a fair comparisson. I have many relatives who work for GM in Michigan. And I have some friends who work for Toyota in KY.

True also that Toyota does not have as many retiries to look after as GM. I'm not saying that GM does not have a disadvantage vs. Toyota i'm just saying that the disadvantage seems very exagerated.

Toyota is a company that was very small and is now huge they don't have that many retiries. But give it time they soon will.

GM is a company that was extreamly huge and have now been forced to downsize. Hence the large retirement base. But give it time and that will shrink.

I read an article a few years ago that said that the average auto worker dies 6 years after retirement.

With this new agreement any advantage that Toyota has over GM I feel will be very small with respect to labour costs.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by Gm_Tooler

The only way to become "good and efficient" is thru experience - in this case, "time in the industry".
.

Partially true, but most skilled tasks can be mastered in pretty short time period when you perform them day in and day out. I highly doubt that many 30 year guys perform much differently than a quick learning 5-10 year fellah. If the 5-10 year fellah got his experience outside the UAW, he is hosed, plain and simple, if he wants to work in a UAW shop. Not only that, but car assembly gets closer and closer to lego level complexity as computers and machinery get more and more accurate at making parts. When cars still had much work that was truely handcrafted work 20-30 years ago, you would have had a really strong point, but that just isn't how things are anymore.

[TriShield]

GM will be swirling the toilet again in five years or less. I guarantee it.

[Clownzilla]

Although this deal shows both sides have given a lot, it STILL does not make GM competitive compared to the expenses of imports. Now, it makes them more competitive, but not competitive. This is not trash talking the unions (although I can't stand them) but GM has no other choice but to move production outside the United States over the years. It might take 10 to 15 years, but it is inevitable that it will happen. A business has to compete to survive.

[sigma]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

It was $70/hr. What is it now that health care costs have been removed?

I'm going to estimate that it is closer to about $53-57/hr now. GM spent almost $6 billion in healthcare last year alone. Now that there is going to be a tremendous write down by the company as it moves those obligations over to the UAW VEBA trust. This will dramatically reduce GM's cashflow problems and will allow them to invest much more in R&D and hopefully US Plant modernization and new US plants.

[sigma]

Originally Posted by Havasavana

I'm not clear on what you're saying. That made-in-China will go up? I'd think so. Currency will become a big factor too I expect. Theirs going up; ours going down. I think GM quality might well go down as the compensation declines we might see more turnover. At some point, worker's pensions might be strictly of the 401K type, so sticking with a company long term and being emotionally invested in quality might decline. How do you see all this?

Actually that's incorrect. The Chinese Juan is pegged to the US dollar to make sure that Chinese imports continue to recieve the trade advantage regardless of where the dollar trades. The bank of Japan also attempts to keep the Yen below the dollar in such a manner but without anything as blatant as pegging.

Where this will help will be US exports to Europe where the value of the Euro has soared.

[Evo69]

About time some of those legacy costs get shifted from GM to a UAW controlled fund, the UAW itself is a huge financial corporation all by itself lol.

The savings as Sigma said will be highly beneficial to GM. More money into R&D, new engineering processes, plant improvement, new US plants is not money wasted and just in time too for GMs nascent maneuver to market domination.

[Gm_Tooler]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

If you are going to go OUT OF YOUR WAY to say you are Union you better expect to be treated as a PR guy.

Anyone here who goes out of their way to say who they work for is representing the company, which is why most people don't broadcast who they work for with their Avatar, Handle, or Signature.

Excuse me, I was delayed by stopping to comb my hair. I didn't realize the level of responsibility that came with posting in this forum.
Maybe you should spent less time worrying about the motivations of others and concentrate on your obvious laden fear:

"Hope the boss doesn't find out I'm posting on here".

But, I guess if those merit raises you speak so highly about actually had more to do with your work performance and less to do with helping the boss take a stroke or 2 off his golf game, you could relax more.
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[paul8488]

Originally Posted by Gm_Tooler

Without seeing all the details, this contract looks like a huge win-win. Specifically for retirees and future retirees (me). In the past GM's obligation for providing retiree healthcare ended when the current contract expired. Now a VEBA may be formed and funded by GM. And much like a pension fund, once the money is in, it stays in. This is especially important is case GM were to continue to falter.

Interesting how some UAW members see this as a good deal and some don't. I wonder what the sticking point is for some... obviously this will suit YOU as you finish your career at GM and eventually retire. I hope it ends up being a positive thing for all of you... even if it's not a good a deal as existed a few years ago, hopefully it's still a fair deal.

[Gm_Tooler]

Originally Posted by jasaero

Partially true, but most skilled tasks can be mastered in pretty short time period when you perform them day in and day out. I highly doubt that many 30 year guys perform much differently than a quick learning 5-10 year fellah. If the 5-10 year fellah got his experience outside the UAW, he is hosed, plain and simple, if he wants to work in a UAW shop. Not only that, but car assembly gets closer and closer to lego level complexity as computers and machinery get more and more accurate at making parts. When cars still had much work that was truely handcrafted work 20-30 years ago, you would have had a really strong point, but that just isn't how things are anymore.

I think you're missing the point. Experience comes from time on the job, not how quickly you can perform a given task.
Given, a 30yr and 10yr worker may perform quite the same. But the 30yr worker has seen more problems arise and be resolved. That experience could mean less in-plant repairs or recalls down the road (no pun). Saves money. Make sense?
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[jasaero]

Originally Posted by Gm_Tooler

I think you're missing the point. Experience comes from time on the job, not how quickly you can perform a given task.
Given, a 30yr and 10yr worker may perform quite the same. But the 30yr worker has seen more problems arise and be resolved. That experience could mean less in-plant repairs or recalls down the road (no pun). Saves money. Make sense?
.

Well at one point in GM I am sure 5-10years was enough to see A PLENTY! These days, I am sure fresh meat will see less over that same time and there may be some value in that. It just seems it would make more sense if pay was based more on actual quality of employee rather than seniority or time with the company. I am an engineer in Aerospace and actually have chosen to work contract only after only 5 years in the business, because things got tight and I can for now. But on top of that, I find that how much I learned and how much I got done had little to do with my actual pay grade. Sucking up to the bosses, getting degrees that didn't help with my real job, and other things unrelated to the tasks I was given seemed more important as a direct employee than how good and much work I completed. At least as a temp we all get paid about the same and are let go first if we don't perform well rather than being let go according to seniority or how well we suck up. Sucking up can still help, but it's not as effective when you are not a direct. I guess I can understand the sucking up aspect as it's hard to fire a buddy, but to be forced to keep someone that doesn't perform well, JUST because he has been there forever seems a bit extreme. If Unions had their own rankings based on proficiency of the trade and such rather than seniority, I think they would have a lot easier time dealing with employers in general anyhow. It would also attract the best skilled workers to the union since your abilities would be more important than your devotion to the Union itself when they fought for better pay for you. They would actually have a dollars and cents per hour arguement to why you deserved better compensation then also. On top of all that, it would probably help membership levels in states that have right to work laws that can dwindle membership levels.

[Gm_Tooler]

Originally Posted by paul8488

Interesting how some UAW members see this as a good deal and some don't. I wonder what the sticking point is for some... obviously this will suit YOU as you finish your career at GM and eventually retire. I hope it ends up being a positive thing for all of you... even if it's not a good a deal as existed a few years ago, hopefully it's still a fair deal.

Thanks. If you look at the big picture the deal may actually be better. Any new hires will be affected the most. And, I doubt they'll be included in the VEBA. More likely a 401h to help reduce their retirement healthcare expenses. Active workers will feel some pain. But hopefully not enough to derail a what could be a watershed contract, for everyone.
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[GM Factory Rat]

Originally Posted by paul8488

Interesting how some UAW members see this as a good deal and some don't. I wonder what the sticking point is for some... obviously this will suit YOU as you finish your career at GM and eventually retire. I hope it ends up being a positive thing for all of you... even if it's not a good a deal as existed a few years ago, hopefully it's still a fair deal.

Thanks for the kind words also.....I'm in the same boat as GM Tooler with 29+ years of service at GM. So far, this deal looks fair to all those involved...Union and Co.....Time to move on with the rants and get down to business again!