Bob Lutz Discusses Park Avenue; GMInsidenews Makes National TV!

[Ming]

Thanks all, it makes my 11,000 posts seem like much more than an exercise in fun & futility.

As for this, when I posed the question to John McElroy it was supported by the hundreds of comments and tens of thousands of views that the Chinese (or as Bob put it the "Holden") Park Avenue drew from you all here who kept the interest running - despite GM North America making no attempt to inform us of this China-Market Buick. This was all about enthusiasm from the grass roots level.

Without that passion to back me up, my question would have been nothing but the nagging of a single guy, and never would have made it to the show.

And John McElroy really is a kindred spirit who wants GM to succeed and recapture its former glory days. He might not come out and say that in those words, but you can tell if you watch the show enough. I think he knows where we are coming from and the frustration we felt when we compared our Buick offerings to what China is getting.

[chinamonty]

Well done-perhaps we have to call you Ming the masterful!
Where to source the vehicle from is an interesting question. My bet would be Australia for two reasons.
1. The Chinese market doesn't have the V8. I don't know whether they duplicated tooling and press panels etc here or not but changing the line to cover a V8 imported from the states would be difficult if the line hasn't been designed with that in mind. Still they ould look at the return against the investment if they decided to change the line.
2. if those Senators go ahead with their 25% lunacy then you are in deep doo-dahs even though the engine would not be subject to tarrif if it US sourced and thats a fair chunk of the cost of the vehicle.

[MisterMe]

Originally Posted by t-rex

... This guy is an outright liar! I hope viewers of that TV show don't actually believe that stupid, outright untrue crap he spouted about the Japanese market. ...

Specifically, which "outright untrue crap" did he spout?

[stevecmh]

great to see he wants to stay around for as long as possible..... and that he wants to stay until GM does better.. both great things

[redimpss5]

Man, I love that rear seat style. It looks like it would be great on a road trip!

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by MisterMe

Specifically, which "outright untrue crap" did he spout?

For openers, as I've stated ad nauseum in here, the tariffs placed on imported cars in Japan is nominal - only a few percentage points tops (last data I had was 4.5% but it's old data). The fearless CAW leader spouted the same rhetoric we hear from all auto unions regarding Japan being a "closed" market. This simply isn't true. Japan adheres to all international GATT rules, which doesn't allow prohibitive tariffs. Generally, tariffs are only allowed to developing nations, and the greedy Western world has managed to strongarm them out of even that last bastion of self-development. And nearly all of those tariffs are being phased out this year, or by 2010.

Secondly, the high prices commanded for BMWs and Benzes in Japan comes from the fact that the Japanese are simply willing to pay premium prices for prestige products. German imports aren't expensive there because of some prohibitive tariff, they're expensive because the manufacturers can get away with selling them at high prices. And if you go to Japan, you'll see WAY more 5- and 7-series BMWs than you'll see 3-series, unlike the model mix in the rest of the world.

I always pose this challenge... name ANY vehicle built in North America that has potential for high-volume sales outside North America. Chrysler are the only North American manufacturer with noticeable export sales, due mainly to the fact that they have no overseas subsidiaries. Jeeps, 300C's and a few other models enjoy some popularity overseas.

GM are having incredible difficulty selling passenger cars on their home turf — so what makes you think a LaCrosse will appeal to anyone in Japan? You may or may not realize this, but Americans have vastly different vehicle tastes than the rest of the planet. The bulk of the "Japanese" products available in North America are designed for, and built in, North America. Or at least they're either not available in, or not very popular in, Japan. The Infiniti FX, for example, is built in Japan, but you can't buy it there. Why? Because it's unlikely anybody in Japan would buy it. The car is tailored specifically for the American market.

A cursory glance at Japan's top-10 selling cars will tell you the REAL reason why imports flop in Japan. Simply put, few companies outside Japan build the oddball, boxlike wagons that totally dominate Japan's domestic market. Of the 50 or so models Toyota offer on the domestic market, about a dozen are sold outside of Japan, and of that dozen, a good bit of them are low-volume niche models. The Japanese don't like Buicks for the same reason Americans don't like Lancias or Citroens. It's a simple matter of customer preference. In short, the Japanese buy almost exclusively oddball Japanese models, and high-ticket Euro imports.

Japanese companies tailor their products for global markets, and Toyota lead the pack here. Our Camry is designed exclusively for North America and Australia, with the Middle East being a major export market. It sells in smaller numbers as a luxury sedan in Southeast Asia. The Tacoma, Tundra, Avalon, Sequoia and Quest are of Americans, by Americans, and for Americans. You can't buy any of these elsewhere on Earth. They build Euro-tailored Corollas, and the Yaris hatchback is designed primarily for Europe. Toyota build its "IMV" family of trucks, SUVs and MPVs for high-end developing countries like those in Southeast Asia, Southern Africa, and Latin America. There's a small cheap AUV (Asian Utility Vehicle) build in Indonesia. This is a very lucrative segment in the ASEAN region.

THIS is why Toyota are close to stomping GM's top position globally. The Japanese design specific models for specific markets. Americans (and I reckon Canadians too) arrogant build domestic-only products, then complain because nobody else on Earth wants their huge ugly FWD sedans and thirsty, huge SUVs. Try piloting a GMC Yukon down the typical English High Street. Just how appealing do you think the Impala will be to Indians? Who in Turkey could afford to put fuel in some 9mpg Suburban?

It's the same cycle of finger-pointing and nonsensical rhetoric that's been coming out of Detroit's mouths since the 1970s. In 1980, they forced the Japanese to limit exports to the US, but at the same time claimed there was "no market" for small cars in the US. That's not rhetoric, it's an outright lie.

In summary, the Japanese don't buy American cars simply because they don't appeal to Japanese taste, or to Japanese driving conditions. The Japanese don't buy French or Italian cars either, but it has everything to do with market forces, not with imaginary prohibitive tariffs. The Italians, Norwegians, and Argentinians don't buy American cars either. What's Mr. Canadian CAW's rhetorical answer to that? If you're going to lay blame, lay blame where it's deserved — at Detroit's doorstep.

And if I hear any more discussion of this imaginary "currency manipulation".....

[Aych Es Vee]

I wish the Holden version had that interior in the Caprice!!!!

[GotAWD]

Thats Freakin Sweeeeet!.

Congrats Ming. Its nice to see hard work pay off.

to anther 11000 posts!!!

[GotAWD]

Thats Freakin Sweeeeet!.

Congrats Ming. Its nice to see hard work pay off.

to anther 11000 posts!!!

[jbernie]

Originally Posted by 2648562

I want to know how the Chinese Park Avenue compares in size to the Lucerne. If it's not significantly larger why bother? Seriously, why? Aside from rear wheel drive, a decent looking front-end, and some luxury appointments I really don't see this car making any difference here. Do you really think rear wheel drive is what Buick buyers crave? Are you all hot for its optional 250 horsepower?

With all due respect, the Park Avenue in China is a limo, it is for the owner to be driven around in, in Australia where it is intended to be drive by the owner, but also used as a limo Holden has a v6 and V8 and HSV has the LS2 under the hood.

The car can be setup in many different configurations. I think they could probably get a few heads turned with some as limos in NY or LA, give it some decent promos with Tiger etc.

I think the hardest part of making the car work is finding the right set of standard features and a suitable price point. The reclining rear seats are pretty neat, but not always wanted. Given the car is going to be imported for a period of time, the only things you can really option easily are things dealers can install.

Pick the wrong options and the car is a dud, get them right and they will sold before they arrive.

Another important factor, as much as all dealers need good product they need to get them to the right dealers. The GTO was hot in SOCAL but dealers in the midwest were getting the volume because they sold lots of Pontiacs before, but then couldn't sell GTOs so sales were lost. I still see 9 06 GTOs at my local Pontiac dealer here in Colorado.

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by t-rex

For openers, as I've stated ad nauseum in here, the tariffs placed on imported cars in Japan is nominal - only a few percentage points tops (last data I had was 4.5% but it's old data). The fearless CAW leader spouted the same rhetoric we hear from all auto unions regarding Japan being a "closed" market. This simply isn't true. Japan adheres to all international GATT rules, which doesn't allow prohibitive tariffs. Generally, tariffs are only allowed to developing nations, and the greedy Western world has managed to strongarm them out of even that last bastion of self-development. And nearly all of those tariffs are being phased out this year, or by 2010.

Hmm, that's funny, Bob Lutz basically said the same thing as the president of the CAW - the Japanese market has been closed.

Watch the original Autoline interview from last Sunday at 22:50 into it. He talks about how being "#1" in sales isn't that important and he goes on to say:

Originally Posted by Bob Lutz

"The Japanese market has been and has always been esentially closed to the west except for token imports. But we were never allowed to go in there and put in assembly plants and buy Japanese companies and everything. That was all sealed off - by policy. So, Toyota has 2.5 million units in the Japanese market that we basically can't do anything about. Take away those 2.5 million units and guess whos still in the lead"

So combined they likely have 80+ years experience in the auto industry and they are both saying the same thing.

[powervette]

You became a real professional Ming, I think You should be paid for what You do here.

[jbernie]

Just got done watching the video, first time seeing the show, quite enjoyed it, well presented, seems to have sensible rational people on there.

The CAW President was worth listening too, I won't say it was anything new or different but it is always good to see the person present their comments as opposed to a journo providing their own interpretation.

Lutz was great, he may not always give us the answer we want, but I certainly felt that he gave a correct answer each time. Comments on the STS/SLS were disappointing but if you can't get close to recovering the investment then unfortunatey not doing anything is the best option.

Looks like GM needs another 2 or so years to get these new truely global platforms bedded down and we start seeing thetrue benifits of the work done to date.

Park Avenue seems to be on the way but they need to get their research done first.

Presenters view on fuel economy was spot on, in Europe witg gas around US$7 a gallon thats you incentive right there to buy economic vehicles and to profuce them. No need to regulate the big SUVs etc out of the market becaue people just won't be buying them like they do now.

Definately was worth watching the show, great to see Ming's question gettin asked...and even better getting an answer.

[vxl]

I'm strting to become disallusioned with Lutz - stop discussing and spending on developing low volume vehicles, what GM really needs is a Camry killer - instead of HRRs, Solstices etc (which are nice but not going to keep you # 1) put resources into the family car. They've achieved success with the Saturn (Vectra lookalike) but why Saturn with its limited outlets?

[Bravada]

Huge congratulations Ming, I think you are one of the most insightful and worth listening to "auto commentators" around, and I really believe we will be hearing more and more of you from the "big" media

Now, I don't have the time to watch the show now, but...

Hmm, that's funny, Bob Lutz basically said the same thing as the president of the CAW - the Japanese market has been closed.

Watch the original Autoline interview from last Sunday at 22:50 into it. He talks about how being "#1" in sales isn't that important and he goes on to say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lutz
"The Japanese market has been and has always been esentially closed to the west except for token imports. But we were never allowed to go in there and put in assembly plants and buy Japanese companies and everything. That was all sealed off - by policy. So, Toyota has 2.5 million units in the Japanese market that we basically can't do anything about. Take away those 2.5 million units and guess whos still in the lead"

So combined they likely have 80+ years experience in the auto industry and they are both saying the same thing.

If Bob said that, he is talking b/s. Back in the 1970s, GM was the FIRST Western company ever to buy a Japanese automaker, decades before Renault bought Nissan (and a Brazilian-Lebanese guy sent by the French invaders became Japan's no. 1 hero), and before Ford bought Mazda. How GM totally failed to capitalize this brilliant access to the JDM market is a totally different story...