Hydrogen power?

[wpageabc]

Anyone experimenting with hydrogen as a alternate add to boost mpg?
Some of the products coming out look interesting but what about...

Warrentee
Safety
Co2 sensor issues
reliability

Opininons?

[nailhead425]

Hydrogen, especially in gaseous form, has a tendancy to displace other molecules due to the massive mole size. It is generally expensive and difficult to regulate. One can use a propane mixer to run a vehicle on hydrogen, but the cost/power/economy is not a benefit. It will work and it burns cleaner than the air going into the engine, but you won't win any races.

Hydrogen combustion has the most potential in a direct injection evironment where the gas is under very high pressure (helps keep more volume on-board) and there is significant air volume in the combsution chamber. When the hp-H2 hits the chamber it will cool the mix, so really high compression is great.

Hydrogen has two key drawbacks:
1) it takes more electricity to produce it via electrolysis than is gained through recombination in a fuel cell;
2) chemical production of H2 releases significant amounts of CO2.

[wpageabc]

Originally Posted by nailhead425

Hydrogen, especially in gaseous form, has a tendancy to displace other molecules due to the massive mole size. It is generally expensive and difficult to regulate. One can use a propane mixer to run a vehicle on hydrogen, but the cost/power/economy is not a benefit. It will work and it burns cleaner than the air going into the engine, but you won't win any races.

Hydrogen combustion has the most potential in a direct injection evironment where the gas is under very high pressure (helps keep more volume on-board) and there is significant air volume in the combsution chamber. When the hp-H2 hits the chamber it will cool the mix, so really high compression is great.

Hydrogen has two key drawbacks:
1) it takes more electricity to produce it via electrolysis than is gained through recombination in a fuel cell;
2) chemical production of H2 releases significant amounts of CO2.

Good feedback. On the drawbacks for a vehicle as a booster the item. ..#1 is not a big deal since with modern high amp alternators the electrolysis process in a auto generator should not be a factor in performance.
#2 Is a issue especially if the co2 sensor reads this as a signal to add a richer fuel mix which will negate any fuel savings achieved by the hydrogen gas generated to the air fuel mix.
Some have written to use a spacer or hp tuner to defeat this problem on a gm system using its co2 sensor. Someone else recomends a black box in the circuit to the co2 sensor to change the read with resistors and variable resistors.

With gas at $4.00 per gallon and going who knows where folks will be exploring in thier garage. It should be interesting to see if any Tom Edisons out there can find solutions...

[nailhead425]

Originally Posted by wpageabc

Good feedback. On the drawbacks for a vehicle as a booster the item. ..#1 is not a big deal since with modern high amp alternators the electrolysis process in a auto generator should not be a factor in performance.
#2 Is a issue especially if the co2 sensor reads this as a signal to add a richer fuel mix which will negate any fuel savings achieved by the hydrogen gas generated to the air fuel mix.
Some have written to use a spacer or hp tuner to defeat this problem on a gm system using its co2 sensor. Someone else recomends a black box in the circuit to the co2 sensor to change the read with resistors and variable resistors.

With gas at $4.00 per gallon and going who knows where folks will be exploring in thier garage. It should be interesting to see if any Tom Edisons out there can find solutions...

The issue you will run into is the volume of H2 production vs the displaced O2. Since you only have around 20% of the intake charge as O2 and displacement with a non-oxygen bearing gas, such as H2 only from electrolysis.

If you want a good bang for the buck increase in mileage try to maximize the efficiency of the intake and exhaust styems. That includes removing the resonators from the intake hoses, or in some cases a CAI. For the exhaust maximize the efficiency with a low-restriction muffler and mandrel bent pipes.
These are proven and much more reliable ways to boost your economy.

[wpageabc]

Originally Posted by nailhead425

The issue you will run into is the volume of H2 production vs the displaced O2. Since you only have around 20% of the intake charge as O2 and displacement with a non-oxygen bearing gas, such as H2 only from electrolysis.

If you want a good bang for the buck increase in mileage try to maximize the efficiency of the intake and exhaust styems. That includes removing the resonators from the intake hoses, or in some cases a CAI. For the exhaust maximize the efficiency with a low-restriction muffler and mandrel bent pipes.
These are proven and much more reliable ways to boost your economy.

These are good tips...
Can you be more specific about removing resonators from intake hoses?

[nailhead425]

Originally Posted by wpageabc

These are good tips...
Can you be more specific about removing resonators from intake hoses?

The EPA sets drive-by noise limits and part of this is the noise generated by the intake tract. Each manufacturer, each car, has a different design. Generally speaking there are secondary air tracts, or necked down portions that serve to silence the incoming air.

Aftermarket Cold Air Intake systems will accomplish this but beware that some have little to no baffling to prevent water intrusion.

[wpageabc]

Thanks for that valuable feedback. Working on a few improvements to up my MPG on my 06 3.5 H3. Best had is 18mpg. With some testing and some of these ideas hopeing to get over 20 and up!
Cheers!

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

Originally Posted by wpageabc

Good feedback. On the drawbacks for a vehicle as a booster the item. ..#1 is not a big deal since with modern high amp alternators the electrolysis process in a auto generator should not be a factor in performance.

WTF I don't think you understand how the alternator works. It is only providing the current needed at any one time, thus the drag on engine is say X. If you double the current needed, you might be within spec for the alt (say under 100 A) but now you are putting 2X drag on the engine, requiring a significant amount of extra fuel.

The whole hydrogen-generated-on-car-powering-car is so stupid I don't understand why people keep bringing this up. If you plug an extension cord back into itself will it create electricity?!

[wpageabc]

Originally Posted by Smaart Aas Saabr

WTF I don't think you understand how the alternator works. It is only providing the current needed at any one time, thus the drag on engine is say X. If you double the current needed, you might be within spec for the alt (say under 100 A) but now you are putting 2X drag on the engine, requiring a significant amount of extra fuel.

The whole hydrogen-generated-on-car-powering-car is so stupid I don't understand why people keep bringing this up. If you plug an extension cord back into itself will it create electricity?!

If HHO were so lame then why are so many folks getting from 20 to 40 % mpg improvements by using it.

Do you suppose that using ethanol which using more energy to produce is a better solution to available alternate energy options.

If my alternator need to produce a extra 5 amps at times to refresh my battery at times and I am going from 20 to 27 mpg. What do I care if the alternator click in a few more cycles per trip. I do the same thing with my AC when its hot out and deal with it.

[baloo]

Originally Posted by wpageabc

If HHO were so lame then why are so many folks getting from 20 to 40 % mpg improvements by using it.

1. Placebo effect
2. They change their driving when they start caring about fuel ecnomy
3. They're bad at keeping track of their mileage

These "HHO generator" gizmos simply don't do anything worth mentioning. The ones on ebay for example produce 1 gram of hydrogen every 10-11 hrs. This 1 gram of hydrogen contains slightly less energy than half a teaspoon of gasoline.

[wpageabc]

I hear what you are saying. However...
Not talking about a gizmo or something on fleabay.
There is hard data to support hydrogen as a viable alternate fuel. Do a google search and research the reality.
Beside improved MPG it cleans out carbon deposits and combustion chambers. Over your load concerns on electrical systems.

If you want to see placebo effects look at ethanol and what a waste it is as a alternate fuel...
In every category.

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

Originally Posted by wpageabc

If my alternator need to produce a extra 5 amps at times to refresh my battery at times and I am going from 20 to 27 mpg. What do I care if the alternator click in a few more cycles per trip. I do the same thing with my AC when its hot out and deal with it.

You aren't understanding the law of thermodynamics, you will take the 5 A and go to 19 MPG

Also are confusing hydrogen as a fuel source. If you put hydrogen in the car you'd have a point. Like for example you put gasoline into your car and it runs

now lets say instead I put zero gasoline and fill gas tank with water and somehow the water turns into fuel in the car and turns back into water after combustion. this is a perpetual motion machine

[nailhead425]

Originally Posted by wpageabc

I hear what you are saying. However...
Not talking about a gizmo or something on fleabay.
There is hard data to support hydrogen as a viable alternate fuel. Do a google search and research the reality.
Beside improved MPG it cleans out carbon deposits and combustion chambers. Over your load concerns on electrical systems.

If you want to see placebo effects look at ethanol and what a waste it is as a alternate fuel...
In every category.

Actually, you are talking about the gizmos.
This viable data that you are elluding to is questionable at best.
Hydrogen is a horrible alt fuel. While combustion of Hydrogen is better than a fuel cell, when compared to CNG, LPG, Ethanol, etc, it is dead last.
The energy content is low, the storage container required is very large, operating pressures are very high, and it requires a modified diesel engine with direct injection to achieve best results.
Gaseous Hydrogen displaces other molecules, especially oxygen, and therefore it is less efficient in a N/A application without D.I.
The thermal content of Hydrogen is much less than even ethanol, again it is dead last.
Plus, the energy required to obtain hydrogen is greater than the gain from either recombination in a fuel cell or than the thermal expansion via combustion.
Hydrogen is such an attractive alt fuel because it is a zero emissions fuel. Even though it would require a massive infrastructure change to produce the H2, it just isn't worth the money, cost, or equipment.
As far as your underhood systems. These are a joke. They are based on flawed, junk science.
Just for a moment, consider that if all it took to get a 5,10,15,20% mileage improvement why wouldn't the OEs install said devices? CAFE is a huge concern and if this worked, they'd be all over it.
Your vehicle's electrical system cannot provide enough electricity to produce enough H2 to provide mileage gains.
How exactly, from a scientific stand point, does a "fuel" with less energy content and does not act like a catalyst, increase the fuel economy while maintaining completing the same amount of work?

Let's break down what an internal combustion engine is:
All internal combustion engines are a combination of a thermal and mechanically driven air pump.
Based on the ideal gas law, they are powered by the combustion of a fuel. Fuels with the greastest heating ability have the highest rate of mechanical/thermal expansion. Since as the temp increases so does the pressure, max temp/pressure is key. Hence why Diesels are so potent, yet return better fuel economy than a gas engine of the same size/output.
Diesel has a higher heating rating, or in other words a greater BTU content per pound. This same concept explains why an engine fueled with Ethanol, with the same output as a gasoline engine, will return lower fuel economy.
In order to complete the same amount of work, when using a fuel with a lower heating rating, more fuel is needed. Hydrogen has less than 1/2 the heating content of Ethanol. It is a lousy alt fuel.

So, you want to gain fuel economy? Try...
1) increasing the efficiency of your engine with less restrictive intake and exhaust systems.
2) try using less fuel needlessly.
3) get a tune up.

Better yet, develop a heat recovery system that uses direct injection of water, or even better the water-like liquid with massive thermal content, after the completion of the exhaust stroke. That way there are 2 exhausts, one of spent combustion gases, one of the spent steam.

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

I doubt if there is enough heat in the very small mass of exhaust gases left in the cylinder after the exhaust stroke to even boil a few milligrams of water even... maybe if the exhaust valve was kept closed during the stroke and then injection of water but even so it is really minimal

Then there is the problem of wear on the valves and cylinder because of the low quality of the gases under that conditions... the exhaust gas normally already has a good amount of water vapour so there are issues

[nailhead425]

Originally Posted by Smaart Aas Saabr

I doubt if there is enough heat in the very small mass of exhaust gases left in the cylinder after the exhaust stroke to even boil a few milligrams of water even... maybe if the exhaust valve was kept closed during the stroke and then injection of water but even so it is really minimal

Then there is the problem of wear on the valves and cylinder because of the low quality of the gases under that conditions... the exhaust gas normally already has a good amount of water vapour so there are issues

You'd be surprised. MBZ and some others are working on it now.
There were several prototypes that do in fact use 2 exhaust strokes.