New Ford Performance Vehicles Falcon Range Released - Ford Considers Axing V8 Falcon

[paul8488]

Another thing... are there any concrete plans for a diesel Holden? I know the idea has come up before... anyone know if they're working on it? I sure hope so, and that they'll have it out before Ford does. Is there an existing 6-cylinder diesel in GMs parts bin that would suit the Commodore?

[nota]

Originally Posted by 1931Chevy

The inline six has 2 more years of life, its a damn good engine but will not meet AU new Emission restriction for 2010, thats why Ford has some Falcons here in the states since they are testing the D35 for the falcon

I've seen written in the media that 'Ford privately admits' the charismatic straight-six could indeed be made to comply with post-2010 emission requirements, but further investment in the Geelong-built engine has been curtailed by the parent company in favour of the incoming imported V6.

In a tale of continuous evolution and improvement, the current FG inline 6-cyl still shares its bore spacings with original Falcon 144 cid engine first seen in 1960!

[AG3]

Originally Posted by paul8488

Some people just want a V8. Just as many don't like the idea of a 4-cyl or even 6-cyl Camaro and wouldn't buy either even if they had 400 hp, I assume that many Australians who currently buy V8 Holdens and Fords will only ever buy V8s. This could be good news for Holden.

I know it wouldn't be practical since Ford already makes 3.5 liter and 3.7 liter V6 engines, but if the consumers were given a choice.... would a smaller displacement (3.7 liter?) V8 be more acceptable than a V6 in a Falcon?
By the way, what percentage of Falcon(and Commodore) sales have V8 engines in them?

[Aych Es Vee]

Originally Posted by paul8488

Another thing... are there any concrete plans for a diesel Holden? I know the idea has come up before... anyone know if they're working on it? I sure hope so, and that they'll have it out before Ford does. Is there an existing 6-cylinder diesel in GMs parts bin that would suit the Commodore?

pretty sure Holden confirmed a diesel for the Commodore before the end of 2009, coming from VM Motori.

[Generation IV]

Originally Posted by paul8488

Another thing... are there any concrete plans for a diesel Holden? I know the idea has come up before... anyone know if they're working on it? I sure hope so, and that they'll have it out before Ford does. Is there an existing 6-cylinder diesel in GMs parts bin that would suit the Commodore?

Yeah, Holden has stated that it would be out before the end of 2009. VM Motori is supplying the Diesel with Holden obviously adding its own adjustments. The VM Motori RA 630

http://www.vmmotori.it/en/01/00/01/dettaglio.jsp?id=9

3.0L, 24v, V6
184kW / 4000rpm
550Nm / 2000rpm
Euro 5 emissions certificate

[KingElvis]

Originally Posted by asrapid

Straight Six are inline six engine. they are perfectly balance but also more longer and taller (usually ) then V6 (which are wider).
Now 4.0 l I6 with turbocharger and 417 HP.
Why GM doesn't offer 3.6 l with TT? Or maybe even bigger displacement with TT? It could probably develop over 400 hp.

It's rarely mentioned, but the truth is that the an inline six is inherently balanced. It's actually smoother than the vaunted V8.

The V8 as we have is really just two four cylinders hooked together - it's smoother than a 4cyl, but a straight six or V12 (like two straight sixes hooked together) are the ultimate 'naturally' (no balance shafts or crank/flywheel balancing needed) smooth engines.

[paul8488]

Originally Posted by KingElvis

It's rarely mentioned, but the truth is that the an inline six is inherently balanced. It's actually smoother than the vaunted V8.

That's apparently the appeal in the Epica inline-6. It's not very powerful, but it's supposed to be very smooth.

[mikmak]

Yep, the epica is syrupy smooth...and gutless, but hey whatever floats your boat. As far as Ford dropping their V8, it would be a shame and I'm sure that the 1000's of Ford V8 Supercars fans would get over it.....not!

I really didn't buy the whole emissions non=compliance about the I6. Packaging issues are the biggest shortfall. The DOHC head was replaced in 2002(?) and I'm sure the block has little to do with its certification.

I dig the new FPV design except the Pursuit ute. It looks very awkward.

[mmciau]

I think all the "do-gooders" are getting paranoid about big, thirsty, polluting V8s.

Maybe a nice little alloy V8 like Daimler had - 2.5 litres with smick electronics and minimal emissions!

Mike

[Aych Es Vee]

oh yeah, then they wont be able the be in the V8 Supercars anymore with the lack of a production V8!!!!!

[BBDOS CV8]

While a six with three 120 degree throws does have perfect primary balance, it also has a rocking triplet - the offset of the crank journals causes an issue which in the Falc can be felt as shaking at high revs and high throttle openings.

They can be overcome, but there's alsp issues with

1. Crank whip - the crank bends and the ends use all the bearing clearance whcih flogs the mains out One reason why Sprintcars went to V8s, the motors just live better with the shorter, stiffer crank. Long cranks ring like a bell and having a standing wave in them at high rpm.
2. The rod also attempts to twist in the bore but is unable to - puts loadings unevenly on big and little ends
3. Delivering lubrication evenly over the entire crank
4. Even length induction (not an issue with F-I) and exhaust, complicating intake and exhaust
5. As Mik noted, the engine is TALL and l-o-n-g, meaining it overhangs the axle. Also mean the cases need heavy webbing to resist cracking and flexing. BMW slants the motor over, and keeps it short to minimise these impacts.

The Ford six does not rev harder than Holden V6s - revs are limited by the longstroke design (pistons smaller in diameter than stroke). The Ford six and eight at redline of around 6,000rpm are both over the maximum accepted mean piston speed of ~ 11m/ second where basically the piston starts outrunning it's lubrication. Thank modern lubricants for that one. Once upon a time only racing motors would be doing that, with frequent rebuilds.

Whereas the GM LSx and HFV6 motors is not even there at 7.500rpm. That's actually how fast the piston is moving up and down the bore. It is at zero m/s at TDC and BDC and then speeds up to supersonic speeds mid-stroke. On a long stoke motor that means the piston is being accelerated faster to a higher speed.

The Ford six makes up for it, as a larger-capacity motor by producing more power down low ( a hallmark of longstroke design) and more torque means the ability to pull taller gears. OTOH, the Holden SV6 will still outrun the naturally aspirated Ford, on Ford's own figures - the extra 1,000 revs and high RPM horsepower swings it back into contention.

The problems of longstroke motors can be overcome by turbos - you don't need to rev them harder, boost them up for more torque with low-blows, and gear 'em up and they go faster. Same thing Ford did with the s/charged Mustang and GT40.

I can understand Ford int. killing the motor. It's never going anywhere other than marginal RHD exports, and the Falcon with it would absolutely remain a one- hemisphere car. Getting the V6 means they can use a common underbody architecture, which they've wanted to for the Mustang and Falcon.

I don't know if losing the eight will hurt Ford. It removes the reason for them to compete in V8 Supercars, though. Perhaps they are curtailing that anyway.

[SpaceCowboy]

Yet this article claims Ford is looking at using a direct injection 5.0 litre V8 to replace the 5.4. Good move I say.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...25742C001C726F

Although when you think about it, it looks like they are setting up the model range with a view to dropping the eight, after all, why else would FPV introduce their own version of the turbo six, and now the only way to get a V8 in a regular falcon is in an XR8.

It's not looking good for lovers of RWD V8 Fords in Aus. Then again, the turbo six delivers some serious torque, hopefully the boosted V6 can do the same. That should keep the punters happy

[mmciau]

Originally Posted by BBDOS CV8

...

Good observations and comments about the virtues (or otherwise) of the I6.

Mike McInerney

[VB3.3]

I can't imagine Ford OZ not fielding a V8 Falcon, especially if there is something off the shelf in the States.

No way known Ford NA would abandon the V8. Can you imagine the Mustang competing with the Camaro with only a V6?

[Rick_VT]

Originally Posted by AG3

I know it wouldn't be practical since Ford already makes 3.5 liter and 3.7 liter V6 engines, but if the consumers were given a choice.... would a smaller displacement (3.7 liter?) V8 be more acceptable than a V6 in a Falcon?
By the way, what percentage of Falcon(and Commodore) sales have V8 engines in them?

Holden has said there around 20-25% of total sales are V8 but im not sure if that included HSV's sales in with theirs